Cmon guys, this is c/memes and not c/politics yet you make it look like we’re in a fucking civil war lol

  • Compass Inspector@invariant-marxism.red
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    2
    ·
    1 year ago

    You’re not understanding me. I’m not reproaching communism and vindicating liberalism. Im saying that to really understand communism, a serious study of Marx’s work and the labor movement is needed. The rejection of Marxism-Leninism comes from an understanding of how it arose as an opportunist counter-revolution current in the context of the defeat of the world communist revolution, not some vage objection to “authoritarianism”.

    the parts Marx is incorrect about (that capitalism naturally trends to socialism and the worker will have necessarily poorer conditions under capitalism)

    The conditions of the worker is more wretched and slave-like than ever, especially in some countries. This is obvious to anyone paying attention who doesn’t have some petty bourgeois adgenda to peddle. As for the former, your statement reads to me like a personal fantasy wishing that Capital has finally overcome the class struggle via social democracy- a hilarious thought considering how badly social democrats have stabbed the labor movement in the back repeatedly for over a century.

    other political philosophers who built upon his and Engels’ work.

    I don’t know who you’re even talking about. There have been plenty of opportunist hacks that tried to graft their bullshit onto Marx, like Kautsky. But Lenin dealt with him and people like him already, so that requires no further comment.

    • Custoslibera@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Hmmm well maybe we are talking past each other.

      I see it like this, the manifesto was a call to arms for the factory workers of Europe; join our revolution and your life will improve.

      And some did, and their lives did improve for a while, but most importantly the majority of workers (ie European workers who didn’t have a revolution) did not join and their conditions still improved (WHS laws, working hours, sick leave, PTO, pension, healthcare).

      How does Marx explain this? This shouldn’t be possible according to Marx.

      When I was saying people have built on Marx I was alluding to revisionists like Bernstein.

      He points out that self interest is a motivating factor, once a worker has a certain level of condition then they are no longer willing to risk that in a revolution, capitalism has effectively satiated them. Revolution is no longer possible in this situation.

      This is the western world I see today, a lot of people who aren’t willing to risk what they have to get something better.

      My solution (which isn’t really mine) is to appeal to their self interest, sure it’s nice now, but it would be even better under socialism etc.

      • Compass Inspector@invariant-marxism.red
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        How does Marx explain this?

        The entirety of Marx’s Critique of the Gotha Programme is related to this subject. He explains it in excruciating detail. Also, the experiences of the opportunism of the second and third international explains it.

        The working class does, from time to time, capitulate to opportunism and sacrifices the long term goal for the revolutionary socialist transformation of society in favor of short-term gains. This opportunism arises most of all in cases of desperation. The bourgeoisie has no qualms about exploiting this by granting short-term concessions, which it knows it can claw back at a later date when the situation is more favorable, in order to avert a revolution and preserve their privileged class positions. However communism is not just about immediate results.

        The answer to this is the Communist Party, the working class organized into a political party and the repository of knowledge and experience for the working class. It’s given rise by the interests of the working class materializing into a precise consciousness. The communist party fights against opportunist degeneration by sticking to the historical invariant programme of the communists and draws lessons from past successes and defeats.

        Party and Class.

        • Custoslibera@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Yeah that’s where we disagree.

          I don’t think you get to say ‘hey those nice things you got while under capitalism will disappear at some point - source, trust me bro.’

          That arguably hasn’t eventuated for western workers as we haven’t returned to the original or worse conditions than when we were at at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

          Too few are interested in dying to improve their conditions further which disarms any vanguard party.

          I don’t know much about Hegel, but the bit I do know makes me very skeptical about historical materialism. Socialist philosophy is better without Hegel IMO, yes I assume you disagree with this strongly.