Without a doubt.

I don’t think they care whether they are legitimate or not to be completely honest. Hamas won the election in '06 fair and square, then defended against an attempted coup…whether that leaves them as a legitimate power or not is beyond my scope of understanding. One could probably also argue that they lack of elections for the last 18 years makes them illegitimate. But regardless, Hamas is an easy excuse whether they were elected fairly today or 18 years ago. I honestly don’t think Israel would treat Hamas and Palestinians any differently if they won a fair election again next week.

Exactly. When someone thinks an occupied people living under siege and military occupation can just wake up one day and decide to hold elections I can only shake my head. Israel won’t allow it, because they love Hamas being in power in Gaza, it provides a very easy excuse for their actions. Israel loves the status quo, because they can seemingly get away with anything as it is.

To be completely fair, I don’t think anyone is blaming Biden for all of the conflict between Zionists and Palestinians historically. What we are blaming him for is facilitating the last 7 months of blatant genocide and ethnic cleansing by sending money and weapons to Israel and defending them at every turn. without Biden’s unwavering support, the last 7 months would look a hell of a lot different for Palestinians.

I didn’t intend to say being pro-Israel means you’re okay with everything they do. What I’m trying to say is that in my experience, people interpret “pro-Israel” as being in support of the way in which Israel exists, namely an apartheid an ethnostate.

I’m envious of your trips to Palestine. One day I’ll get there. I have friends who said they will take me one day.

I think it’s important to remember that for most people, anti-Israel does not mean Israel cannot exist at all. It is that the Israel we know, cannot continue to exist in the way that it is. Similarly to being anti-South African apartheid did not mean all the settlers had to be leave, it meant the country had to fundamentally change the way it operates and treated the its citizens.

To add, if you are calling yourself pro-Israel, I think you should be aware that for most people that means you are a-okay with how Israel has been oppressing and murdering Palestinians for decades.

I’ve said this before and I will say it again. This period of time will go down in history as a particularly dark time in human history. The fact that not only is this happening, but efforts to stop it from people with real power to change it is incredibly minimal. The world powers letting this happen is perhaps worse that the Zionists doing it.

To be fair, the current leader is aiding a genocide. US presidents tend to be criminals in one way or another.

Great, now do Israel

Years, decades *

Why are you bringing out Arafat in the 90s? Your comment lacks relevance to what you’re replying to. Arafat has nothing to do with the fact that Israel wants Palestinians to leave Gaza.

Everyone including the US government knows that Hamas will survive this assault. It’s not about Hamas, it never was. Hamas simply provided Israel with the excuse to carry out an ethnic cleansing that they’ve been wanting to do for decades.

I just ordered a pedal steel guitar yesterday and there’s a chance it will arrive today. If it does, I will be spending some quality time with my new instrument. I have a rehearsal this afternoon for a gig next week as well.

I’ll be spending time with my wife, perhaps playing some video games with my best friend, and likely playing some disc golf tomorrow.

I’ve interviewed Palestinians nearly 10 years my junior (and I’m not that old) and was always impressed by their maturity. They seem to understand things far beyond what most people the same age in my own country can. I truly believe that Palestinians live through the stress, difficulty, hardships, etc that an average person goes through in a lifetime (or more), before they turn 18. It will always stick with me just how intelligent, caring, understanding and mature these kids can be.

How about this section?

16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.

I’m sorry that you’re so down with colonialism that resistance groups fighting against oppression make you so uncomfortable. You’re whining about “Hamas calling for the genocide of Jews” yet you’re watching the supposed “Jewish homeland” (read: Jewish ethnostate) commit genocide on the people of Gaza. This to me says that you care only about Jewish life and very little or not at all about Palestinian life. You’re a racist, as all true Zionists are.

I dare you to go read their current charter. Not the one from the 80s.

Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000

The Electronic Intifada: https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861

Mondoweiss: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/

The Grayzone: https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

I’m waiting for the IOF to make a very public display of the apache gunners who shot indiscriminately at the festival, or the tank commanders firing indiscriminately at homes in the kibbutzim. Your argument falls flat when the Israeli army not only is killing thousands of civilians in Gaza (and are proud of it btw), but also their own citizens on Oct 7.

A ceasefire comes about as an agreement between the parties. That’s why it is hard to get to (Hamas won’t stop defending Gaza, and the IOF doesn’t want to stop shelling/infiltrating). In order for the two parties to lay down arms even for a moment is with negotiations and agreements. We saw during the ceasefire, multiple negotiations, resulting in specific numbers of hostages from both sides released. These numbers weren’t decided at the time of release, they were specifics negotiated and agreed upon between parties.

Everyone that I know, that is calling for a ceasefire wants to see a permanent ceasefire. Not one that begins with Israel stating they will return to obliterating Gaza as soon as its over, but one that results in a process toward Palestinian self-determination, ALL hostages released both by Hamas and Israel. Keep in mind, Israel holds thousands of Palestinians hostage, including many without charge or trial and during the ceasefire, Israel detained more Palestinians than they released.

Israel doesn’t have to be gone in order for Palestinians to be free. People are protesting because this isn’t a war, this is resistance fighters standing up against an occupation and apartheid system. A free Palestine does not mean Israel and Zionists wiped off the map. It means Palestinians living with dignity, human rights, and self determination; things they are not given now, and have not been given for 75 years.

Yes, there are those in the fringe that believe Israel needs to be wiped off the map. Any political situation will breed extremists. But in order for peace to be achieved, first and foremost is the dismantling of Israel’s APARTHEID SYSTEM.

this is why we rally. Our governments must understand that we are tasking them with putting pressure on Israel to change its ways. This is how apartheid fell in South Africa.

Free Palestine.

Salam and shalom to all citizens of Palestine.

Edit: forgot to add: those extremists do not represent the movement as a whole