I was permabanned because I took part in a wider discussion on the r/games subreddit (hogwarts thread) that devolved a little bit into talking about trans issues down in the lower comments somewhere. I basically agreed with someone that if CIS women don’t exactly feel comfortable sharing a bathroom with trans women and that if they wanted to have a discussion around that then that was a reasonable opinion to have and thing to do, and I guess the moderators thought that I was calling for trans genocide or some other insane BS.
no I am not, I personally know trans people and I have nothing against them whatsoever. You’re just unwilling to admit that other people can have valid opinions other than your own if it doesn’t immediately fit into the view of the ideal world you have in your head. You fail to realize that other people have their own ideas of a what an ideal world looks like, or you just don’t consider their views to be valid, in which case you are doing the very same thing to them that you are accusing them of. So what it then comes down to is the need for a discussion between the two opposing groups to figure out what to do and how to reconcile. For the record, I don’t have a personal opinion on who should use what bathroom, I was merely stating that if cis woman feel that sharing that space with trans women is not safe or ideal for them then they should have the right to express that opinion, be heard and have a discussion on it. What you want to do is pretend you are not acting like a fascist while telling them to shut up and just live it and not express their opinion. What I am doing is saying that both ends of the spectrum should be heard there.
Counterpoint:
At my partner’s former workplace a transwoman cannot enter the women’s bathroom at the same time as any AFAB woman. That woman has to stand outside and wait if people are trying to use the bathroom and essentially out and other herself on a daily basis. I don’t know if this came about because some annoying Karen complained or because management preemptively decided to shit on her so as not to risk offending any of the other women who use the bathroom. It’s pretty fucked. I can’t imagine how embarrassing and dehumanizing that is. If a transman came into the bathroom with me I wouldn’t think he was trying to get his jollies looking at my weiner. Also, plenty of cis dudes have done that to me. That said, the vast majority of my bathroom visits have been just that minus any leering whatsoever from anyone no matter what parts they have.
The discussion has been had. I mean, white people used to not want to drink from the same drinking fountain as black people. This is the same logic
I’m not saying creeps and perverts don’t exist, but I’m willing to bet there are easier ways to get a glimpse of bathroom boobies than checks notes going on hormone therapy and fundamentally changing how you interface with society
I mean. Yeah: I know transwomen (and men). When you’ve lived all your life as a cis person this shit is kind of a mind fuck. I never realized how lucky I am for my body and mindset to just fundamentally make sense to me. Until it got more visibility I had no reason to even consider that viewpoint and even now it is still foreign.
Just talk to people. Getting to know the human behind everything so that trans folks aren’t just abstractions will definitely make you empathetic. I’m lucky enough to live somewhere fairly progressive where trans folks can let themselves happen whether they “pass” or not. By and large they just want to live and not have to be othered all the time.
I’m also willing to bet the lady who called you a transphobe is just sick of seeing bad faith arguments trickle down. Being trans in our society is massively anxiety provoking for reasons you’d expect. Hearing those same arguments that have been weaponized in other contexts (even if the person currently saying them is not necessarily a raging asshole) is triggering because of how blurry that line can get
When you’ve lived all your life as a cis person this shit is kind of a mind fuck. I never realized how lucky I am for my body and mindset to just fundamentally make sense to me. Until it got more visibility I had no reason to even consider that viewpoint and even now it is still foreign.
It’s interesting to try and imagine what it’s like, as a cis person. I can get pretty bad anxiety moments, and I imagine it’s just like that 24/7, and that’s horrifying. What I can’t imagine is withholding relief from someone going through that.
Maybe my perception is off and it feels different, but it’s mental anguish of some kind, and I can empathize with that. It’s probably much worse anguish than what I’ve experienced, but I can wrap my head around the idea at least. And yeah it makes me feel lucky – I can’t imagine what it would be like if the bad anxiety I got was also politically weaponized so half the country hated me.
I’m not saying other people shouldn’t have a voice on this topic, but that discussion is a topic that is based in transphobia. If a woman feels uncomfortable sharing the bathroom with a trans woman, it’s because she has a predisposition to fear and feel unsafe around trans women.
Contrast it with the past, where men used to feel uncomfortable with women in typically male dominated spaces. I remember seeing an old news video where a female reporter was sitting in a bar typically frequented by men. She asked them how that made them feel and all the men she asked made a point to mention they felt uncomfortable with her in the bar with them and they would rather her leave than share the bar with her.
This is the same argument you’re presenting. It would seem ludicrous now as we’ve moved past that point (for the most part, it’s not a 100% solved issue sadly), but at the time it was seen as a legitimate argument, as sexism was still rampant at the time and it was the norm for women to be excluded from male spaces.
There is nuance to your presented argument in that the space that’s in question is a restroom, which is a more private and intimate space, but the nature of the argument is still based in transphobia and I think should be presented as such. It’s the root of the issue and the aspect that needs to be addressed before any headway can be made on the topic
Fine, is not wanting a black person in the same restroom as a white person not an argument based in racism? I avoided this topic since I assumed you’d call it a tired argument, but if you want a more direct comparison this would be more apt.
And I did acknowledge that it’s a much more nuanced topic when you direct it to restrooms, but the core of the argument is the same imo. You just didn’t read that far in the comment lol
When I was a younger man I used to feel very uncomfortable around gay people, particularly gay men. I didn’t “hate” them per se, but being around them made my skin crawl. This was a direct result of the environment I grew up in, and the lack of experience I had with actually getting to know gay people personally. Eventually once I made my way out into the world I was forced to interact with actual gay men and learned that they are just normal people, and my discomfort was entirely in my head, it was a product of ignorance and prejudice. I am glad to say I am better for having moved beyond that. At that time those feelings were a lot more politically valid, but that doesn’t make them any less homophobic. What you are validating is the same. Trans women using female bathrooms pose no actual risk to those cis women (any more than other cis women do in female restrooms). I would bet that very few of those cis women vocalizing those concerns have ever actually been aware of sharing a restroom with a trans woman. They just imagine some hairy boogyman dressed in a dress saying “I have the right to use this bathroom” but that’s in their head. It’s not a valid fear, it’s a phobia. They need to be educated, not coddled and told those feelings are valid. If trans women were actually assaulting or peeping on cis women using the restroom that might be different, but the fact remains women (cis or trans) are almost certainly much more likely to be assaulted in the women’s restroom by a cis man than by a trans woman. You can’t say you are not trans-phobic and still validate those baseless fears.
At the end of the day, I just want somewhere to relieve myself and maybe wash my face. The fear that women may have with a man in their bathroom is likely not related to actual use of the bathroom, but fear of assault.
This attack on trans people in bathrooms is just smokescreen to mask the problem that some men are fucking creeps who need to be called out. I think it was Huckabee who said he would’ve loved to be able to go into the women’s locker room when he was in school, and I was fucking disgusted by it.
I think that the point cis woman make is that trans men who transitioned after puberty have different things going on with their bodies that cannot or will not be changed no matter how much work or change is done and then the concern is that a bad actor then has the average strength of a male (the general point of view being that sex-males are “generally stronger” than sex-females) will have a physical advantage that a potential female bad actor would (generally) not have. I think that is a valid concern for cis women to have I believe it is a valid discussion to be had. I will not dismiss their point of view or arguments. Plus, not all trans women are women that have transitioned - so imagine a bad actor with sexually abusive intentions, now a trans man without transition surgery is still capable of getting a cis women pregnant when a bad actor cis women cannot. I also think this is at a valid concern worth at least listening to. I don’t think you can ethically just disregard these concerns.
first, you have your terms backwards. Trans men were assigned female at birth and transitioned to male. They want to be able to use the men’s restroom. You are discussing trans women’s right to use the women’s bathroom.
What does the physical size of some trans women have to do with anything? There are a lot of gay men who are bigger and stronger than me, if a “bad actor” wanted to sexually assault me, the men’s bathroom would be the perfect place for them to do it. Should we ban gay men from straight men’s restrooms because of some men would have that fear? No, and the reason is because it’s not a valid fear, it’s in my head (or was), it’s not likely. Does that mean no gay man has ever assaulted a straight man in a restroom? Of course not, but it just not a realistic fear. It’s in their head. It’s a phobia.
Cis women who are uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with trans women are uncomfortable not because they have seen big hair men in dresses eyeballing them in bathrooms, but because they are irrationally afraid of that. It’s not a valid fear, because it doesn’t happen. It’s a phobia. Cis women are just as safe with a trans woman in the bathroom than they are with other cis women in a bathroom. That is an indisputable fact based on all actual evidence. Anything else is an irrational fear based on prejudice and ignorance and you are validating that. That means you are supporting transphobia right now, whether you want to admit it or not.
if you were a trans woman you’d understand how frightening it is to enter woman’s bathroom, for reasons such as those you’ve mentioned.
no, i am not a fascist. there are no discussions that can be considered sound from an ethical standpoint when it comes to viewing me as a human or subhuman, a position which you find is “worthy to discuss”. bye!
So what you’re saying is that people should have the right to say openly transphobic things, but also others don’t have the right to point out they are saying (and therefore being) transphobic, and that kind of speech isn’t welcomed here?
I was merely stating that if cis woman feel that sharing that space with trans women is not safe or ideal for them then they should have the right to express that opinion, be heard and have a discussion on it.
You’re being intellectually dishonest though, because you know that a new physical bathroom is not going to appear out of thin air, so that women can be segregated into different own restrooms.
And you also know that some women are not going to be refused the restroom while others are going to be able to use it.
And finally you know you’re not going to be able to force some women to use the men’s restroom.
The only thing that leaves is that those that are uncomfortable with it to basically try to get over it, and mind their own business, especially if there’s privacy stalls for each individual when using the restroom.
And yes, you’re allowed and encouraged to express yourself. But it has to be done in a way that is a benefit to society and doesn’t tear it down. You have to be intellectually honest if you actually want to solve issues.
You have to adapt to the world, not have the world adapt around you.
I was permabanned because I took part in a wider discussion on the r/games subreddit (hogwarts thread) that devolved a little bit into talking about trans issues down in the lower comments somewhere. I basically agreed with someone that if CIS women don’t exactly feel comfortable sharing a bathroom with trans women and that if they wanted to have a discussion around that then that was a reasonable opinion to have and thing to do, and I guess the moderators thought that I was calling for trans genocide or some other insane BS.
hey, trans woman here.
Counterpoint: At my partner’s former workplace a transwoman cannot enter the women’s bathroom at the same time as any AFAB woman. That woman has to stand outside and wait if people are trying to use the bathroom and essentially out and other herself on a daily basis. I don’t know if this came about because some annoying Karen complained or because management preemptively decided to shit on her so as not to risk offending any of the other women who use the bathroom. It’s pretty fucked. I can’t imagine how embarrassing and dehumanizing that is. If a transman came into the bathroom with me I wouldn’t think he was trying to get his jollies looking at my weiner. Also, plenty of cis dudes have done that to me. That said, the vast majority of my bathroom visits have been just that minus any leering whatsoever from anyone no matter what parts they have.
The discussion has been had. I mean, white people used to not want to drink from the same drinking fountain as black people. This is the same logic
I’m not saying creeps and perverts don’t exist, but I’m willing to bet there are easier ways to get a glimpse of bathroom boobies than checks notes going on hormone therapy and fundamentally changing how you interface with society
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I mean. Yeah: I know transwomen (and men). When you’ve lived all your life as a cis person this shit is kind of a mind fuck. I never realized how lucky I am for my body and mindset to just fundamentally make sense to me. Until it got more visibility I had no reason to even consider that viewpoint and even now it is still foreign.
Just talk to people. Getting to know the human behind everything so that trans folks aren’t just abstractions will definitely make you empathetic. I’m lucky enough to live somewhere fairly progressive where trans folks can let themselves happen whether they “pass” or not. By and large they just want to live and not have to be othered all the time.
I’m also willing to bet the lady who called you a transphobe is just sick of seeing bad faith arguments trickle down. Being trans in our society is massively anxiety provoking for reasons you’d expect. Hearing those same arguments that have been weaponized in other contexts (even if the person currently saying them is not necessarily a raging asshole) is triggering because of how blurry that line can get
It’s interesting to try and imagine what it’s like, as a cis person. I can get pretty bad anxiety moments, and I imagine it’s just like that 24/7, and that’s horrifying. What I can’t imagine is withholding relief from someone going through that.
Maybe my perception is off and it feels different, but it’s mental anguish of some kind, and I can empathize with that. It’s probably much worse anguish than what I’ve experienced, but I can wrap my head around the idea at least. And yeah it makes me feel lucky – I can’t imagine what it would be like if the bad anxiety I got was also politically weaponized so half the country hated me.
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I’m not saying other people shouldn’t have a voice on this topic, but that discussion is a topic that is based in transphobia. If a woman feels uncomfortable sharing the bathroom with a trans woman, it’s because she has a predisposition to fear and feel unsafe around trans women.
Contrast it with the past, where men used to feel uncomfortable with women in typically male dominated spaces. I remember seeing an old news video where a female reporter was sitting in a bar typically frequented by men. She asked them how that made them feel and all the men she asked made a point to mention they felt uncomfortable with her in the bar with them and they would rather her leave than share the bar with her.
This is the same argument you’re presenting. It would seem ludicrous now as we’ve moved past that point (for the most part, it’s not a 100% solved issue sadly), but at the time it was seen as a legitimate argument, as sexism was still rampant at the time and it was the norm for women to be excluded from male spaces.
There is nuance to your presented argument in that the space that’s in question is a restroom, which is a more private and intimate space, but the nature of the argument is still based in transphobia and I think should be presented as such. It’s the root of the issue and the aspect that needs to be addressed before any headway can be made on the topic
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Would you say men not feeling comfortable with women in the workplace or a bar is an argument not based in sexism?
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Fine, is not wanting a black person in the same restroom as a white person not an argument based in racism? I avoided this topic since I assumed you’d call it a tired argument, but if you want a more direct comparison this would be more apt.
And I did acknowledge that it’s a much more nuanced topic when you direct it to restrooms, but the core of the argument is the same imo. You just didn’t read that far in the comment lol
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When I was a younger man I used to feel very uncomfortable around gay people, particularly gay men. I didn’t “hate” them per se, but being around them made my skin crawl. This was a direct result of the environment I grew up in, and the lack of experience I had with actually getting to know gay people personally. Eventually once I made my way out into the world I was forced to interact with actual gay men and learned that they are just normal people, and my discomfort was entirely in my head, it was a product of ignorance and prejudice. I am glad to say I am better for having moved beyond that. At that time those feelings were a lot more politically valid, but that doesn’t make them any less homophobic. What you are validating is the same. Trans women using female bathrooms pose no actual risk to those cis women (any more than other cis women do in female restrooms). I would bet that very few of those cis women vocalizing those concerns have ever actually been aware of sharing a restroom with a trans woman. They just imagine some hairy boogyman dressed in a dress saying “I have the right to use this bathroom” but that’s in their head. It’s not a valid fear, it’s a phobia. They need to be educated, not coddled and told those feelings are valid. If trans women were actually assaulting or peeping on cis women using the restroom that might be different, but the fact remains women (cis or trans) are almost certainly much more likely to be assaulted in the women’s restroom by a cis man than by a trans woman. You can’t say you are not trans-phobic and still validate those baseless fears.
At the end of the day, I just want somewhere to relieve myself and maybe wash my face. The fear that women may have with a man in their bathroom is likely not related to actual use of the bathroom, but fear of assault.
This attack on trans people in bathrooms is just smokescreen to mask the problem that some men are fucking creeps who need to be called out. I think it was Huckabee who said he would’ve loved to be able to go into the women’s locker room when he was in school, and I was fucking disgusted by it.
Kudos for sharing this. Hopefully others can learn from it too.
I think that the point cis woman make is that trans men who transitioned after puberty have different things going on with their bodies that cannot or will not be changed no matter how much work or change is done and then the concern is that a bad actor then has the average strength of a male (the general point of view being that sex-males are “generally stronger” than sex-females) will have a physical advantage that a potential female bad actor would (generally) not have. I think that is a valid concern for cis women to have I believe it is a valid discussion to be had. I will not dismiss their point of view or arguments. Plus, not all trans women are women that have transitioned - so imagine a bad actor with sexually abusive intentions, now a trans man without transition surgery is still capable of getting a cis women pregnant when a bad actor cis women cannot. I also think this is at a valid concern worth at least listening to. I don’t think you can ethically just disregard these concerns.
first, you have your terms backwards. Trans men were assigned female at birth and transitioned to male. They want to be able to use the men’s restroom. You are discussing trans women’s right to use the women’s bathroom.
What does the physical size of some trans women have to do with anything? There are a lot of gay men who are bigger and stronger than me, if a “bad actor” wanted to sexually assault me, the men’s bathroom would be the perfect place for them to do it. Should we ban gay men from straight men’s restrooms because of some men would have that fear? No, and the reason is because it’s not a valid fear, it’s in my head (or was), it’s not likely. Does that mean no gay man has ever assaulted a straight man in a restroom? Of course not, but it just not a realistic fear. It’s in their head. It’s a phobia.
Cis women who are uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with trans women are uncomfortable not because they have seen big hair men in dresses eyeballing them in bathrooms, but because they are irrationally afraid of that. It’s not a valid fear, because it doesn’t happen. It’s a phobia. Cis women are just as safe with a trans woman in the bathroom than they are with other cis women in a bathroom. That is an indisputable fact based on all actual evidence. Anything else is an irrational fear based on prejudice and ignorance and you are validating that. That means you are supporting transphobia right now, whether you want to admit it or not.
if you were a trans woman you’d understand how frightening it is to enter woman’s bathroom, for reasons such as those you’ve mentioned. no, i am not a fascist. there are no discussions that can be considered sound from an ethical standpoint when it comes to viewing me as a human or subhuman, a position which you find is “worthy to discuss”. bye!
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So what you’re saying is that people should have the right to say openly transphobic things, but also others don’t have the right to point out they are saying (and therefore being) transphobic, and that kind of speech isn’t welcomed here?
You’re being intellectually dishonest though, because you know that a new physical bathroom is not going to appear out of thin air, so that women can be segregated into different own restrooms.
And you also know that some women are not going to be refused the restroom while others are going to be able to use it.
And finally you know you’re not going to be able to force some women to use the men’s restroom.
The only thing that leaves is that those that are uncomfortable with it to basically try to get over it, and mind their own business, especially if there’s privacy stalls for each individual when using the restroom.
And yes, you’re allowed and encouraged to express yourself. But it has to be done in a way that is a benefit to society and doesn’t tear it down. You have to be intellectually honest if you actually want to solve issues.
You have to adapt to the world, not have the world adapt around you.
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