This is very troubling, and I’m not even sure where to start. I recently received an email message from my ISP which alerted me to an incoming update. I didn’t worry too much since this is obviously not the first update they’ve ever pushed through.
However, after this update, I noticed that my guest connections and some other things had changed / disappeared. I logged on to my router, and I immediately noticed my custom password had been reset to the default. No problem, I entered it.
At this point, I saw that all of my options were greyed out. I could change the password, which I did, but nothing else. I immediately called my ISP.
I was told that I would have to use their app now, so as much as I dislike using proprietary phone apps, I conceded and installed the app through the Play store.
However, the agent was not entirely honest with me. I still can’t bifurcate my 2.4g and 5g connections, nor can I add or remove any guest connections. I immediately enabled “privacy mode” via the app, which purportedly prevents information from being collected by something called “HomePass,” and I “Delete[d] Guard events” whatever the hell that means, but this seems really troubling. I can no longer access my modem/router settings via the normal interface, but have to use an Android app?
There is only one other ISP in my area. They have much worse/slower service, but should I switch, or is this just the “new normal”? Does what I’m describing even make sense? I’m not a tech expert, but I feel like I’ve self-taught myself how to navigate these settings, and learned from others in online forums, but now … an Android app?
I’d appreciate any advice. I’d even be willing to purchase my own modem/router instead of using the one from my ISP, if that fixes this mess.
Edit: So I need my own router, at least. I did some research, and these are the ones I can get locally that are within my budget:
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TP-Link Archer AC1900 Dual-Band Mu-Mimo Wi-Fi Router with Gigabit Port
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Linksys AC1200 Dual Band WiFi 5 Router
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TP-Link Archer AX1500 WiFi 6 Dual-Band Wireless Router | up to 1.5 Gbps Speeds
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TP-Link Archer C54 | AC1200 MU-MIMO Dual-Band WiFi Router
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NETGEAR - Nighthawk AC1900 WiFi Router, 1.9Gbps (R6900) I’VE BEEN WARNED AGAINST NETGEAR THOUGH IN OTHER FORUMS
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TP-Link | AX1800 4 Stream Dual-Band WiFi 6 Wireless Router | up to 1.8 Gbps Speeds
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TP-Link Archer AX3000 | 4 Stream Dual-Band WiFi 6 Wireless Router | up to 3 Gbps Speeds
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Linksys E7350 AX1800 Wi-Fi 6 Wireless Router
Am I right in thinking the TP-Link AX3000 is best?
Edit 2: At first, I bought the Netgear AC1900, which seemed like a great deal. Turns out it was unusable without creating a netgear account, so I returned it in exchange for the TP-Link Archer AX1500, and it appears to be working! I got everything set up pretty close to the way it was before, except even better.
Once I save money, I’ll also invest in a different modem and return this one to my ISP.
This was a big wake-up call for me in terms of privacy. I never listened to people saying not to use your ISP’s equipment because I always trusted my ISP (it’s not one of the big name ones). Never trust a company. Lesson learned. I appreciate all the responses I got! This community is great!
Get. Rid. Of. Their. Router.
ISP provided networking routers are inherently garbage. They don’t want users messing with that, because your average user doesn’t even know what the fuck an ethernet cable is and will break everything by fucking around in it.
Run your own router and put theirs into modem only mode with routing and wifi disabled. If that’s not an option ask their tech support if you can buy your own DOCSIS/fiber modem (or whatever hardware you use) and return their hardware. If they also don’t allow that… well, switch or just suck it and deal with it while the ISP rubs their nipples some more.
https://cdn.imgchest.com/files/j7kzcvmllm7.png
So I can’t disable wireless mode. This too is greyed out, and it also doesn’t let me disable wireless via the app. (When I try, it throws a popup that says “You must have at least one network.”
So is my best bet to get my own modem with router built in, or could I still connect a router to this, but never use the wifi connection through their equipment? I don’t have a lot of money, so I also want to be a bit mindful of cost.
I’d check to see if your provider has an approved modem list, buy one off that and then run your own router.
So I will want a separate router vs. buying one that has it built in? I can use whatever router I want, right? That part doesn’t have to be from the list.
Any combo modem router is typically trash and you NEED separate modem because if you get a combo you will be in the same situation. They will flash the combo unit with the same firmware wether you own it or not.
You will want an aris modem from there approved list and a good wireless router. When you swap out your modem you will need to call in so they can flash it with thier firmware (which is fine). You can then configure your router as needed.
I can’t recommend a wireless router because I have a Unifi household and have been out of the consumer space for a while. I hear netgear nighthawk are still creame of the crop though.
Wow, so ISPs can usually flash custom firmware on a 3rd party router? I’m surprised that capability exists, although I can kinda see the rationale for why it does.
No but to modems they can because the modem needs to talk to their equipment.
Can ISP’s really flash firmware to a 3rd party router? That’s wild. I’m not sure that’s happened to me before, and I’ve been forced to use Comcast/xfinity my whole adult life. I’ve had multiple Arris modems, and whenever I check their status page, it was always Arris branded, and stayed the same before and after hooking it up and registering it with the ISP.
I always assumed the rigamarole of registering a personal modem was simply a white listing process (give MAC address, receive internet). I’ll have to look more into it, I didn’t know there was anything else going on.
You are going to get more functionality if you buy separate devices. A combo router is going to give you less flexibility in the future. That is why you keep getting that recommendation.
That makes sense, thanks. As much as I try to educate myself, I’m a soft sciences guy and a bit of a misfit when it comes to this type of thing :P
Also keep in mind that you’ll be free of whatever rental fee they were charging you to use their modem/router.
Damn, you’re not wong! I’ve had this ISP at this address since 2019, and before that we had them at another address for 4 years. I could have probably bought my own modem and router several times over.
When I try, it throws a popup that says “You must have at least one network.”
Sounds like it might allow you to disable it after you plug your own router in. If not, customer service might be able to do it. Ask them to put it in modem only mode.
All the router modem combos I have used have basically disabled most of the features including wifi if it gets set in modem only mode
I bought a refurbished cable modem for less than $30 off of amazon that’s working well for me. I’d just go that route instead of using their equipment. Even if it breaks in a year, that’s savings over renting ISP equipment.
Some ISPs will not let you put the modem into a true bridged mode. I would try to disable as much on it as you can. As long as the traffic can pass through from the modem to your router that’s the important part.
Yup.iterally only use the modem to convert the signal, then run your own setup off that Ethernet cable.
That’s what I’m thinking. I looked up how to use bridge mode for my router, and it does look like I am able to access that setting, at least for now.
Yup.iterally only use the modem to convert the signal, then run your own setup off that Ethernet cable.
That is literally fucked. There are some scenario’s where I can imagine an ISP wanting to force wireless on. a mesh network for their customers sounds like the most straightforward reason. if you cannot replace the router, faraday the shit out of it. put your own router behind the isp router and don’t forget to change the MAC address of the router (isp will probably block any 3rd party router macs on the network. seen it before)
That shit would get thrown in a metal cage and treated as a radioactive DMZ network-wise if I was forced to use it
My ISP is the dumb pipe my internet comes from, it’s bad enough that they inject bandwidth cap warnings into the raw HTML of webpages like some sort of adware virus, they can stay the fuck out of my local network
messing with html sounds very worrying to me. is that on https connections to any site they do not control? Do you have an isp application installed?
Only HTTP, they intercept any unencrypted page in flight and inject a giant banner at the top that won’t go away until you acknowledge it, no local application required
This is 100% legal in the US, and in fact, some small regional ISPs actually made money injecting actual ads into webpages, literal spyware
This is the result of the death of isps as net-neutral carriers.
that would immediately prompt me to use vpn for any connection. I’m sorry to hear that man.
The worst part that ISP’s do these days is have all their hardware broadcast “guest” networks that you can’t disable. They market it as a bonus since any of their own customers using their own apps can connect to any ISP-provided guest network anywhere to save mobile data, but it’s actually just a massive uncontrollable security hole.
When I had Comcast, I had to call them and have them turn this stuff off for me, fwiw.
I’ve owned a TP-Link that frequently lost all my settings. I’ve owned two Netgears and they’ve been great. I’ve owned two Linksyses and they’ve been great. That’s just my experience.
I couldn’t even access the Netgear settings without creating a Netgear account, so I returned it. My friend who has a Netgear said this didn’t used to be the case, but I could not bypass that requirement.
Fvck it, run your own router on top of that. Make a another local network and just connect it to the ISP Router, then connect all your devices to the new local. Voila.
Also run a VPN on the new router if you daisy-chain them.
Fun thought. I’d try wrapping their wifi router in a faraday cage of chicken wire, test that the signal isn’t going out with a nearby smartphone, then plug ethernet from their to my own wifi router.
Does chicken wire actually work for this?
I haven’t tried it but if it chicken wire has enough metal in it, it should work, in principle. I don’t get great reception in my chicken run wrapped in chicken wire, if that makes for a good sign.
Ah so similar to the metal screen that keeps microwaves from escaping a microwave oven.
I know people who raise chickens, so maybe I can hit then up for some wire
Yes, get your own router, don’t use the app. If you’re technically inclined, the app will only restrict what you can do with the equipment. And with ISP owned equipment, they have api access to your equipment.
I deleted the app as soon as I got a normal router put in place and my network set up the way I want. I’m not sure why I even thought the app would do what I wanted, but the agent deliberately deceived me.
You could always do double NAT (put your own router behind theirs) as last resort. It’s not that bad, I’ve done it a lot.
Out of curiosity, if your router is able to connect with their network, why do you then need to add their router back in front of yours?
In that case you totally don’t. But many ISPs only allow their own routers/modems or require some very specific abilities from 3rd-party routers usually only found on more high end (expensive) models. So sometimes the last resort is double NATing (which is fine for most users).
If you can’t disable theirs.
yeah, double-NAT tends to break a lot of multiplayer games though so I heavily try to avoid it.
That’s surprising, considering CGNAT would break it as well and is meaningfully common.
Do you need NAT if their network supports IPv6 and your whole home network is set up in IPv6?
Probably, unless they have a static delegation or do prefix delegation properly, which if they did they probably don’t suck enough to require double NAT^ lol
^single NAT for IPv6, assuming they don’t NAT it themselves
Is the Unify Dream Machine a good option?
If you’re on the techy side and want an all-in-one solution? Sure, if you plan on expanding within their ecosystem later. Unifi’s biggest benefit is the ecosystem, being able to manage everything from one place is nice.
I worked on one clients unifi setup and loved it. Immediately got the usg 4 pro, 24 port switch and 3 pro waps. Highly recommend for a prosumer setup.support can be whack, but lots of YouTube and forums. Meraki too pricey for home setup but the support is top tier for critical business.
Yes.
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Yeah I was thinking about the consumer one, which also has a WiFi AP integrated.
It’s good enough.
I’m running wired routers with their wifi systems. I have a lot of control over my network.
I have the usg pro 4 with ap pros and love it.
I can’t speak to the all in one dream machine, though I’m sure it’s similar in capability to my UDM pro, which has been fairly solid for me and only really has had trouble when I induced it myself. It’s definitely much more complex and open than most home routers, and allows you to set every single thing you can think of, the drawback though is that it’s not as automated as some home routers and you need to know what you are setting more in depth when you step off the auto modes. Overall I’ve been very happy with my unifi setup. I also use Protect and I’m looking to set up Access too soon(ish).
I have fiber here in my apartment.
There is an optical network terminal with an Ethernet port on it. The optical network terminal does not appear to do any routing, just conversion of the signal between the electrical and optical interfaces. An ordinary PC can be plugged directly into it, use DHCP to get its IP address, and that’s it.
I was supplied a router by the ISP as well. It’s spent the better part of the last decade gathering dust in a drawer.
lucky bastard, enjoying fiber optic internet with common sense hardware…
No kidding. I’m going to sorely miss this setup if I ever move out.
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Of course they have to configure the modem- they have to set it up right to talk to their own hardware. Itd be impossible to use otherwise.
The point is to insulate your actual LAN settings and router from the ISP so they can’t go fuck with it. This isn’t even a security thing - the ISP can and already is sniffing every packet you send - it’s just trying to maintain some semblance of usable control.
my ISP didn’t gave me the captive portal password and I’m afraid to reset it now because they’ve manually entered the WAN IP 😩
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Use that shit as a modem and get another device for your internals.
So I just got off a chat with an agent who tells me if I provide my own equipment that I will be able to use the settings as normal and delete the phone app, but that I have to use one from their supported modem list.
I’m thinking about the Arris SBG8300.
Arris makes good stuff. But that is just the cable modem. It will NOT provide any router protection for your home network. Your network topology should look like this:
ISP -> your cable modem -> your router -> everything else
Honestly, if you don’t have need for many ethernet connections, just get a wifi router with good reviews and the arris cable modem. Make sure the cable modem you pick up has the right DOCSIS version for the speed you are getting or plan to upgrade to. Your ISP will be able to tell you what version they are on.
Arris makes good stuff.
Except when they hardcode the challenge for logging into the admin console into their web frontend. To call the firmware code quality subpar would be an exaggeration.
Please forgive my ignorance, but this would need an additional wireless router? Isn’t it built into the device?
I do understand your flowchart, but it seems to me that this model covers both the modem and router aspects.
(To be clear, this might be my own ignorance. I do remember before they had modems with wireless built in, I would connect an additional wireless router, but I might be behind the times again.)
I would advise against a combo unit, what’s your provider, speed tier, and how much are you looking to spend? By the way, if you have a larger home/area you plan on covering, you’ll likely need to spend more.
So I’m not disclosing my provider’s name since I live in a sparsely populated area, and I try to avoid accidentally doxxing myself, but: https://librespeed.org/results/?id=085pib3
I could spend $50 - 100. Anymore than that, and I’d be scared of not making ends meet for the month.
I was mostly asking for the provider since they almost always have a small list of acceptable modems. Unless you can copy and paste the ones you know they’ll accept, it’ll be hard to know if they’ll allow it. Plus, buying a combo unit is usually a big mistake, as they tend to be garbage and overpriced. Buying separate sounds like extra steps, but from experience it’s the way to go.
Oh, I see! Here is the list. I don’t want to pressure you for advice, but if you have any, I’d sure like to hear it!
That would do both, but I wouldn’t buy that personally. Make’s troubleshooting a connection problem more difficult, and also if the device fails there’s two things you have to replace instead of just one. I’d go with a separate cable modem and router.
Personally i use Isp network - ISP router - cable - my own router wifi + cable
So ISP router only does wired communication and my own router handles all internal devices as well as wifi. That way you get more control at the cost of slightly more electricity.
I know you’re on a budget, but avoid Intel puma based modems. The raw specs look good, they’re the only 8x32 channel docsis 3.0, but they have a big that causes a serious jitter.
https://lookgadgets.com/articles/intel-puma-modems-list/
Personally, I have an Arris S33. The 8200 is good too, those are both docsis 3.1 and more future-ready but $150+. The 8300 you mentioned is an Intel puma, so maybe keep looking. You might be stuck with a 24 channel modem.
Bookmarking this for reference when I’m ready to buy a modem
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If I gave you a list of the names of routers that are available to buy in my town and that are within my budget, do you think you would be so kind as to recommend one for me? There are so many and I really don’t know where to start
I promise I wouldn’t hold you accountable for my decision :P
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The AX3000 is actually on sale for $89, down from $130
If you can, look into Ubiquiti. Their Unifi package is pretty comprehensive, and self-hostable.
If not, get an RPi with two Ethernet interfaces. Run raspbian, and learn IPTables/netfilter with masquerade. Put the WiFi in AP mode. Yes, it’ll suck but at least it’s not their router.
Save up a little bit and upgrade to a NUC with 2x Ethernet or some older HTPC with two Ethernet interfaces, it doesn’t need to be much. If it can run VMs, maybe you could run even run pfSense or DD-wrt on it. Get a managed switch that understands VLANs. Look into upgrading your WiFi to Ubiquiti Unfi APs with a local controller in a VM.
This is the way…
That looks nice, but ubiquiti is way outside what I can reasonably afford, unfortunately
Never use their router. Obviously for the issue you’re having now, but also for financial reasons. They charge ridiculous fees for renting their shit routers when buying one for like $120 will be a significant upgrade over there’s and will start saving money like 6 to 8 months in. Also it’s not tied to the company, so you get to keep it.
I even had the tech try to install their own router after I’d told them I’d be using my own hardware, and then he ARGUED with me that theirs was better and faster. Didn’t ask for your opinion, install the service the way I asked, I know what I’m talking about in this space.
And the same goes for modems. Those monthly equipment fees add up fast.
I spent about $200 on a router and modem when I moved into my last apartment, they have already paid for themselves based on the fees that Xfinity would’ve charged to “rent” the equipment. Plus they’re significantly better than the equipment that isp’s provide
Never use the ISP provided equipment on your network. Even if you must use their modem and router, have them turn of the wifi, and connect your router to their garbage using the WAN port to connect from their LAN port with nothing else connected. If they refuse to turn off their wifi and you can’t do so through the admin, cover their crap in a Faraday cage to kill the signal. Always enter your own DNS settings on your router, never use their DNS. Make sure to use an encrypted DNS to avoid them hijacking it.
I’m pretty sure they can’t refuse. At least in the US. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I never saw a router without an Ethernet port
RJ45 isn’t the only connector.
You should out the ISP by name. Fuck those guys
I know, but like I’ve said before, that would also be a bad choice for me regarding my own personal privacy.
If I felt comfortable doing so, I would have named them immediately because I’m utterly disgusted with this shit.
Never ceases to amaze me just how awful US ISPs are. Why do they get to behave like this? Are they local monopolies or something?
Yes, they are local monopolies. They stay out of each other’s territory, like gangsters.
Good grief. How depressing.
There’s one other big provider here, but it’s not nearly as fast or reliable, nor as easy to work with. Up until today, I always praised my ISP, but this is absolutely bonkers!
By comparison, I live in a small town in rural south east England. I could choose from any one of at least 12 different ISPs, all of whom offer gigabit fibre. And we’re relatively backward compared to mainland Europe.
We’re aggressively backward where I live.
They are an oligopoly. Funny video about it with nsfw language: https://youtu.be/0ilMx7k7mso
@hedders @LinkOpensChest_wav if US citizen migrate to Europe for that reason, does that make them technical refugees? :)
OP, people often mention openwrt, but you can also buy a FreshTomato compatible router and also try that. It’s super user friendly, regularly updated, and has a significant amount of features you would likely never find on average routers, just like openwrt.
I really like using the VPN functionality and running an openVPN server and dynamic DNS setup so I can always connect my phones to a trusted VPN and backhaul my connection through home while I’m out and on a risky open connection.
As a Cybersecurity professional, I feel like it’s got a lot of good things going for it that I really appreciate, and you can control it without the ISP being able to intrude on your network.
I run my wired connections through that and use the router for DHCP, and then also have a separate mesh system for my wireless. I can set up separate virtual networks as needed and have them separated/isolated altogether, or allow specifically how I want them to see each other, etc.
You can even set up entirely different networks by port on the back of the router. Cool stuff. Openwrt is good too, but most people don’t know about FreshTomato I don’t think, it spun off of Tomato several years ago when those devs quit updating it.
Ooo, this is open source too? I’ve got to be honest, I’m a bit out of my depth, but I’m going to try to learn and understand.
Thanks for the recommendation. Kind of a bummer that my router isn’t supported by either this or openwrt.
Yep! It’s open source, which I really like. It’s updated almost monthly so is very active. I like how they quickly patch new vulnerabilities, IMO FreshTomato, and OpenWRT projects are exponentially better from a cybersecurity standpoint protecting you, the router manufacturers are so much slower at putting out updates to their stuff.
Not worth the hassle, replace the stupid router with an openwrt one
I was about to comment that I don’t know how to do that, but it looks like openwrt actually has its own forums.
Still not ready to do this on the spot, but this is another thing worth educating myself about, thanks
I got a MikroTik router and never looked back. That thing is amazing.
Edit: typo
That’s unacceptable. I agree get a dumb modem from them and use your own Router/firewall/ access points
Name and shame, dude. Your post is great and we need some proper nouns.
Talk to your ISP about getting a modem only, without a built-in router, then purchase a separate router of your own. All-in-one modem/router combos are generally kind of crap anyway, and one that your ISP can control directly is obviously a problem on top of that. I get why they’d do that: most users don’t know a damn thing about how to properly set up their network, and being able to change settings without walking the users through it would simplify things. Still crap, but I get why.
Even if you have to buy your own modem, definitely go for a modem-only device and a separate router. Personally I go the extra length of having a modem, a separate wired-only router, and a separate wireless access point for wifi. Combo devices have a habit of not managing memory well and needing to be reset more often.
I’d absolutely recommend using your own modem and router. I do it and the additional control over your network is more than enough reason to make the switch. Plus, using your own modem, and router usually pays for itself in two years, so there are financial benefits as well.
You will need to make sure you get the right modem for your ISP. You can usually verify which one you need on their website.
I just got off the chat with an agent who told me as much. If I provide my own modem/router, I will not have to use the app. I can change it via the normal way.
I’ve heard that Netgear isn’t good anymore, but I saw Arris SBG8300 on the list. I’m going to check prices and features before I decide for sure, but even though I’m poor, I’m not so poor that I’m just going to accept this. This is utter bullshit, and I’m considering switching ISP, even though the alternatives are slower and not as stable.
Sadly that’s how it works if you rent their eq. Your bill should drop if you drop their rental. Usually around 10 dollars for a rental most places.
Depending on your needs, you could get an older Netgear model (just check that it still gets firmware updates)
I saw your edit are you able to get an asus router in your budget? Check Facebook and Craigslist. That’s gonna be the best brand you can buy with the most features. I got a little usb drive hooked up and it has a built in encrypted torrent Downloader. Mine is pretty expensive but I’m sure you can find a used one.
Another user recommended an ASUS. I’m probably not going to find one here on Facebook or Craigslist unless I travel to a bigger city, but I’ve had good luck on ebay. In fact, one of the reasons I lack money is that I just bought a laptop off ebay. I … kinda wish I hadn’t done that now, but who knew?
Like I told someone else, I’m probably going to prioritize getting my own modem now, but whenever I decide to upgrade my router, I can get an ASUS and then give this to a friend or neighbor and help them get set up.
Change iSP if you can, ans un any case you should use your own router running OpenWRT to have full control over your own network
