The difference is that they think that gatekeeping poor people from services in order to bring costs down for everyone else is valid. I’ve seen libertarians argue that the solution to tuition and healthcare being expensive is to stop helping poor people, because that will drive demand down and lower prices for people who can already afford it. I’ve seen libertarians argue that the solution to people scalping groceries is to let grocery stores price gouge. Their solutions only ever involve helping people who don’t need help at the expense of people who do. Libertarianism is “me, me, me right now now now” dressed up in fancy language. It’s the political philosophy of a tumor.
Libertarianism is a great system if you’re using it as a backdrop for a cyberpunk dystopia.
You won me over at cyberpunk.
“It’s the political philosophy of a tumor.” Fantastic analogy!
they advocate for genocide basically.
Yeah way too many people don’t recognize the methods of passive genocide as being such.
“We’re not going to put you in death camps per se; we’re just going to lock you out of every effective means of social and financial advancement, continually reduce the amount of money you’re able to make to feed yourself, and also refuse to feed, shelter, or clothe you. What’s the problem? It’s not like we’re putting you in death camps.”
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Sure. I don’t think anybody is arguing that there is any country that couldn’t give their regulations a once-over and improve things by removing a few counter-productive ones here and there.
That’s not what American style libertarians are actually arguing when they say they want deregulation though, is it?
That’s generally the type of thing libertarians get upset about. Or shit like floral licensing or cracking down on people braiding hair (this is generally black people, obviously) or the bazillion other types of regulatory capture. Farm subsidies and ethanol mandates/fuel subsidies are also a shitshow.
When actual libertarians get a chance to run a town, they don’t start by eliminating zoning laws. This is the kind of thing that happens instead.
I’m not surprised by the fact it did collapse, but i’m surprised that libertarians, of all people, did not try to solve the bear problem using extensive amounts of firepower.
It did mention that several times the town did form posses to go and cull the bears, but didn’t do enough because you also had people just feeding the shit out of them.
You talk as if benefiting the ruling class was an unwanted consequence of these laws. It’s not. The markets need to be free for the rich to benefit but restricted for the rich to benefit. And maybe some crumbs will fall of the table and the poors will think that the rich are so generous.
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So, you are agreeing with libertarians?
No, there should be rules to benefit the poor. But many of the laws now in effect in particular in the US are specifically not built for that. So many laws would better be dropped than enforced, and many are missing.
As far as I can tell, the ones with money want a free hand to do whatever they want to others without repercussion, and the ones without money are willfully drinking the Kool Aid and being led around by the nose philosophically.
So Republicans then.
I can’t tell the difference. 🤷
The same free market that would kill them for a Klondike bar? Sounds about right.
I’ve seen them claim that a natural monopoly cannot exist and that monopolies we see today are all enforced by government regulation.
It’s like they’ve never opened a history textbook.
Or played Assassin’s Creed 2, the fuckin philistines.
I kept reading that as librarian
Am I missing something that makes the image 18+?
Accidentally clicked nsfw when uploading, my bad.
Most “libertarians” are this dumb, but the old school ones at least attribute the problems to uneven regulation rigged in favor of the ruling class, which does jive with my understanding of what is wrong with the financial system. That being said, libertarianism wouldn’t work even if they did get shit straight.
You ever hear a libertarian complain about flying? Fascinating one-person debate about airlines and deregulation.
North America has never been a free market. Even since the days of Sumer have there been regulations on commerce. We will never have a free market.
We have never had a perfect version of anything but are we pursuing perfection or good enough?
Regulations are written in blood. They’re necessary because libertarians are assholes
The only way for libertarianism to work is if every human had only good intentions. Since that’s simply never going to happen libertarianism will never work. Just my opinion feel free to disagree.
Libertarianism is a theory espoused to those with good intentions by people that have bad intentions.
It doesn’t work for almost anyone. But it super works for some. That’s the point.
It doesn’t work for almost anyone
You don’t believe that upholding, and maximising individual rights, and freedoms is a net positive?
You’re forcing a black-and-white dichotomy where one does not exist, which is a nice oversimplification that’s the exact sort of thing I’m talking about.
Everyone loves freedom! Like the freedom to:
- pay a child to work in a mine
- schedule workers for 80+ hours a week
- drive without speed limits
- use as much water out of the local river as desired
- dump waste into that same river
- sell unregulated, untested medicine
So obviously there are “freedoms” that mainly serve to infringe on the actual freedoms of others. Those just happen to be the ones that libertarians don’t talk about so much but are really what they’re after.
You’re forcing a black-and-white dichotomy where one does not exist, which is a nice oversimplification that’s the exact sort of thing I’m talking about.
I apologize, I neglected to write a specific part of my comment that ties in its intent. When I said “Maximize individual rights, and freedoms”, I did not mean to infer “Maximize individual rights, and freedoms at the expense of another”. The limit to the maximization of rights and freedoms is that they cannot infringe on the rights and freedoms of another. This was my mistake. I apologize for this confusion.
pay a child to work in a mine
I don’t believe in child labor. I believe that a child is not capable of giving consent. I believe that a civilized, and free society is dependent on the ability of one to give consent. Exploitation arises out of inability to give consent.
schedule workers for 80+ hours a week
If one consents, then there should be no issue.
drive without speed limits
Speed limits, and public roads are an interesting issue for sure. They are actually rather complicated issues to tackle. That being said, specifically for speed limits, I would argue that they are justified as an individual driving dangerously fast is recklessly endangering the lives of those around them – this would be a violation of the Non-Aggression Principle.
use as much water out of the local river as desired
This is also a difficult issue to tackle. I think this is where Georgism typically comes in. I am inclined to say that one cannot freely take water from a river for the same reason that one cannot freely emit pollution. That being said, in terms of tort law, it would probably be easier to make a claim against a polluter than one taking water from a river. Perhaps a limit could be imposed on the exploitation of a natural resource through a tax (this, I think, is in line with an argument that a Georgist would make).
dump waste into that same river
This would be pollution, and could be handled through tort law, and other environmental protection laws.
sell unregulated, untested medicine
I generally see no issue with this. One cannot willfully endanger the public without repercussions. I suppose the argument could then be should it be preventative, or remedial. That being said, the FDA, for example, does not only mandate a drugs safety, they also mandate it’s efficacy. There is an enormous difference between mandating a drug’s efficacy vs. mandating it’s safety.
[source] Congress amended the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act in 1962 to require that new drugs be shown effective, as well as safe, to obtain FDA approval.
I appreciate your thorough response, but I think it’s clear that “maximize individual freedom” is a BS marketing phrase given how much nuance you had to use when rejecting the “freedoms” I proposed.
But also. No problem with coercing workers to do 80 hour weeks? I don’t think you’ve ever been in a situation where someone had that kind of power over you.
And selling junk but “safe” medicine is as dangerous as selling cyanide labeled as aspirin. Or are you content suing the drug company after your kid’s asthma rescue inhaler was actually just full of nothing and they asphyxiate to death?
I think it’s clear that “maximize individual freedom” is a BS marketing phrase given how much nuance you had to use when rejecting the “freedoms” I proposed.
Again, it should be strongly noted that the maximization of individual freedom does not entail that such freedoms are at the expense of another. Also the usage of the term “maximization” is intentional in that it does not describe a destination, but, instead, an aspiration, subject to the practicalities, and nonidealities of the real world. It should also be noted that you are affirming the consequent in your argument by rejecting all other examples by arguing from, most likely unintentionally, cherry picked points of contention.
No problem with coercing workers to do 80 hour weeks? I don’t think you’ve ever been in a situation where someone had that kind of power over you.
When one enters the employ of another, a contractual agreement of one’s expected working conditions is signed. If one wishes to give consent that their employer has the ability to demand an 80+ hour work week, at the risk of termination, then that is their prerogative. One’s ignorance of their own contractual agreements should not be my concern. Furthermore, a competitive, free-enterprise system would ensure that there is another employer available to take up that disillusioned employee. And, of course,
And selling junk but “safe” medicine is as dangerous as selling cyanide labeled as aspirin.
In what way? Also, it should be noted that selling “junk” medicine is not an immunity against independent audits on it’s efficacy.
Or are you content suing the drug company after your kid’s asthma rescue inhaler was actually just full of nothing and they asphyxiate to death?
Hm, this is under the assumption that a company doesn’t care about it’s own longevity, nor profits. If a company falsely advertises, this is a surefire way for that company to quickly go under. Furthermore, proper tort law would assure that all those involved are held accountable for damages, and that appropriate remediation is ordered. One’s ignorance in consumption really should not be the concern of another. Also, there is a 3rd possible option that wasn’t mentioned in that the FDA could instead serve the role of being a certification body, rather than a regulatory body. What I mean by this is that a company could go through the motions of ensuring the safety, and the efficacy of their drug in order to get an FDA approval stamp on their product. This approval would then be the guarantee that a consumer could look for if they wish to buy a pre-approved (and, presumably, more expensive) drug. A company would be incentivized to go this route as it would ensure them preferential treatment with consumers in the market. A consumer could, of course, still buy a non-certified drug, but they assume the risk associated with that.
“We live in a society” - the jonkler
“Not if I can help it” - libertarians
Typically they argue the government is the cause of the problems (which is frequently correct) and the solution is to remove regulations that create the inefficiencies (which rarely goes to plan and frequently involves enriching them).
It’s clownish just for different reasons than the meme suggests.
Government is only part of the problem. When they fail to see the ruling class behind it, they don’t get too far.
Remember, slavery was a free market solution.
Indeed. I would argue that the free market, itself, carries no inherent morals. The morals, instead, lie within the consumers, and businesses. If the consumers are opposed to slavery, then, on moral grounds, it would be expected that they would boycott such a business. As such, a business would be inclined to not use such forms of labour since the public wouldn’t give them their business; however, it seems that the populace doesn’t care too much about those under the employ of a company as evidenced the rampant use of child labour, sweatshops, and poor human rights conditions by major corporations with foreign manufacturing – if the public is not opposed to such forms of obviously cheaper labour, then the market will certainly make use of them.
That assumes the consumer has perfect knowledge of a businesses practices and has the resources to vote with their wallet. Businesses are incentivised to conceal any actions that would cause them to lose customers, not stop those actions. They are also incentivised to eliminate competition so consumers don’t have a choice but to buy from them regardless of business practices.
That assumes the consumer has perfect knowledge of a businesses practices
This is actually a very good point. I’m not sure that I have a solution for it at the moment. The lazy argument would be that information eventually leaks out, but that is not, in the slightest, a guarantee. I will have to think on that.
and has the resources to vote with their wallet
This outlines the need for a competitive free market. If a business is making an undesirable decision, then the consumer would have other options to choose from, or a competitor without those practices would enter the market to scoop up those who are disillusioned.
They are also incentivised to eliminate competition
The wilful direct elimination of competition is anti-competitive behavior, and is, therefore, incompatible with a competitive free market, and should thus be prohibited.
I’m sorry but anyone who thinks we’re actually in a free capitalist system is delusional. The freedom is a lie they sell us to perpetuate the system.
An actual 100% free market would be rife with drug and human trafficking.
It’s good to have some regulation, and by and large the US is a mostly free market. You are free to start almost any business you want.
Drug trafficking is good, but not really needed when you can grow your own. Human trafficking is a good reason for robust self defense.
There’s a lot more drugs than just the ones you grow at home.
Robust self defense like what? I reallyyy want to know what you consider to be a robust self defense.
Guns. Lots of guns. Mostly social acceptance of our right to self defense, which I’m not convinced we’ve fully solved yet. The robust means sorting out what constitutes a legitimate threat that requires defense and the levels of response considered reasonable. I’m fine with a gal smoking a rapist, for example.
Trade is technology and so is society. Much like it’s hard to predict electronic and scientific progress, I think it’s hard to predict social progress.
What kinds of guns?
Which guns would you take to work or go grocery shopping?
Which guns would you give your kids to go to school?
Where would you buy ammunition when the gangs and cartels control all gun and ammunition trade? (Along with the synthetic drugs and human trafficking)
All of those are personal preferences.
I guess you’d just have your child slaves make the ammo.
I find it not at all difficult to talk to people on the left about theory, but there’s no end of smugness coming the other way. I really love the concept of lemmy and the room it has for learning new things about social relationships, but fuck.
Yeah, I’m asking you about your personal preferences.
My personal preference would be that labor is regulated so that child labor is illegal. And that guns are legal but reasonably regulated so that I don’t have to carry an arsenal with me because someone at the grocery store with diagnosed mental illness packing a ton of heat might get upset and decide to unload into a crowd of people.
When North Korea has better demographics than all the capitalist countries ( no immigration doesn’t count, it’s cheating ) you have a big problem as an ideology.
I dont think ypu can trust north korean reports tho(i am not a libertarian btw.)
It is really difficult to hide people and why?
