- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
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Journalism is when you leave a few dots unconnected for the reader as a fun little puzzle.
Netanyahu didn’t just let the attacks happen, we also know he funded Hamas, and has wanted the attack to use as casus belli so he could do some fucked up war crimes of his own. Netanyahu is a far right extremists who has been paying some fucked up laws, like using live ammo on protestors. He’s a fascist, plain and simple.
The few dots you refer to sound like the “speculation part” which I am very thankful is not included in the article. The news itself is disturbing, but your theory sounds very much like conspiracy theory. However I am open to be proved wrong, as I am not that much into israeli politics.
The “funding” was confirmed by him from a past speech. Funding is in quotes because it wasn’t all direct funding, and that particular speech was about him signing off on a transfer of funds from someone else to Hamas. But the underlying motivation is still accurate because… that’s what he said the reason was. He said he wanted Hamas to have more funding so they would rise in power and keep the people divided.
The rest of it is stuff that can never be proved in favor or against unless you can read minds. However, it seems more than likely if you take into account the wider history of him, his party, and the region.
On the other side of this you have years of massive protests within Israel by Israeli citizens, and ongoing criminal and corruption charges against him and his associates within Israel.
A violent war would help him, and that’s not a conspiracy
It haven’t tho, he presented himself in Israel as “mister security” and 7th of October only ruined his ratings to the ground, just look at the opinion polls
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Israeli_legislative_election
Around half the people in Israel want Netanyahu beheaded. The other half would rather have him shot
You mind linking the speech or copying the relevant part? That sounds very intriguing and I’d love to see what wording he used.
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Netanyahu didn’t just let the attacks happen, we also know he funded Hamas
Can we have a source for that?
Thanks. So Israel handed out work permits and “allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas”.
That’s sounds a bit different from “Netanyahu didn’t just let the attacks happen, we also know he funded Hamas, and has wanted the attack to use as casus belli so he could do some fucked up war crimes of his own.”
I’m not denying that he’s employing a “divide and conquer” strategy, that a lot of his doing is making the conflict worse, that’s he’s using the opportunity to do a lot of damage etc. But it’s not that he funded Hamas because he wanted the attack to happen (at least the article doesn’t prove that).
It’s not that he wanted this particular attack to happen (this article doesn’t prove that, as you said). It’s that he’s been allowing Qatari money to flow into Gaza, knowing full well it’s Hamas getting it. As for the fact that Netanyahu wanted to do warcrimes… Well just look at what he and his cabinet say.
Funded versus allowed, I oversimplified maybe but to a statesman it amounts to the same thing imo.
Netanyahu didn’t just let the attacks happen, we also know he funded Hamas
Objectively false, you can’t dispute that.
Also, even if it was the only distortion, “funded” vs “allowed” mean completely different things, even in that specific context. I’m not being pedantic either; words mean things, especially in such a complex situation.
To be clear, I’m not fully on either side because both Hamas and Israel have done horrible things. But your “oversimplification” is really misinformation and has to be called out as such.
HAMAS is the ruling Palestinian party in the Gaza strip. If Netanyahu didn’t allow money to pass over the border into Gaza, everyone here would be frothing at the mouth that Israel isn’t allowing money into Gaza to fund hospitals! I’m not defending Netanyahu… but I don’t see a situation that couldn’t be spun against Israel.
You can’t ever prove that last part. But knowing he had the intelligence and still moved troops away is pretty indicative of a decision that the Israelis in those towns were expendable.
It’s interesting to me that that has to be repeated so often. It’s really not a little known fact.
Journalism is when you leave a few dots unconnected for the reader as a fun little puzzle.
I just wanna say, no. Journalism is presenting the objective facts and letting the audience decide for themselves how to react.
It’s it really that hard to believe that members of the ruling class would conspire to enact their own will and interest?
History is spotted with blood spilled by consequence of rulers doing exactly this.
That just sounds like the same thing with different wording
I guess there is the old “never assign to malice what can be adequately be explained by stupidity” to consider.
Do you find it adequate?
I’d say never rule out just stupid. Even when you try and make something idiot proof, nature just invents a better idiot. Conspiracies are hard to hold together as people are leaky. I find easier to believe in mass stupidity than mass conspiracies.
I believe in mass stupidity, but also specific evil. People like Netanyahu don’t need to plan everything out, they just react very consistently to opportunities to be cruel, which incidentally creates more opportunities to react.
The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.
Then, in July, just three months before the attacks, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200, Israel’s signals intelligence agency, warned that Hamas had conducted an intense, daylong training exercise that appeared similar to what was outlined in the blueprint.
“I utterly refute that the scenario is imaginary,” the analyst wrote in the email exchanges. The Hamas training exercise, she said, fully matched “the content of Jericho Wall.”
So they did know. They even knew the plan of attack and still did nothing.
At best case, the officials in intelligence that made that call should be fired for incompetence. At worst case, for letting it happen.
Top leadership was probably looking for an excuse to enact genocide, frankly.
That’s what it looks like from here.
Sad, that would make the Israeli military just as responsible for the attack as Hamas.
If they believed the document they already had cause to attack Gaza.
It ran all the way up the chain the first time. Then orders came down to move troops away and into the West Bank. How much more explicit does it need to be? At the very least Netanyahu sacrificed his own people. Even without getting into false flag conspiracies.
At worst case, for letting it happen.
I think really at worst case is causing it to happen.
What I meant is whether you know a source where I can check the exact document. Or at least see in Arabic. So regular people can compare it, as well.
You have to be more specific, fired out of what at what?
The very day Hamas attack happened I suspected that there’s no way Israel’s intelligence orgs, some of the best in the world, did not know about the plan for the attack way before it happened. This whole affair stinks to the high heavens.
Even if it wasn’t intentional
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he directly stated in a speech that he approved funding transfer to Hamas to help them grow in power to keep the people divided
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they moved soldiers away from the border to the west bank to help with settlements
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as this article suggests, they had a lot of warnings
Those 3 points alone should be enough to send him and his party away, and until that happens (and until Hamas is also removed from power), that region won’t see peace.
We need to let the legal system do its job, and for both Likud & Hamas to be removed from power through LEGAL MEANS by the people they say they represent.
Those 3 points alone should be enough to send him and his party away, and until that happens (and until Hamas is also removed from power), that region won’t see peace.
About your Hamas part, Hamas has historically participated in ceasefire agreements in good faith. It’s Israel who doesn’t (hell they didn’t completely follow the current agreement). Why I’m saying this is that the “and Hamas is also removed from power” part is basically Israeli propaganda, because it makes it seem like even if Israel tries to make peace with Palestinians it won’t happen until Hamas is removed (likely by force), which makes things like this current war easier to swallow.
You must be new to the planet if you believe Hamas will ever settle for a two state solution
Y’all seem to forget that Hamas is the weaker side here. If Gazans get something they can accept Hamas won’t be able to refuse. Also historically they’ve been cooperative with Israeli peace efforts.
I’m sorry we’re not allowed to have actual facts here. Only rhetoric. Israel is completely justified in it’s genocide because there’s a single Palestinian with a fantasy of doing it to Jews.
Sorry, I will highlight the important bit
Removed from power through legal means, by the people they state they represent. Removing either group with violence will beget more violence. A new entity with the same ideology will fill the gap.
Hamas as an organization has its own problems, and they share a lot of the same issues as Likud. They both hold on to power through violence and fear.
Oh yeah Hamas definitely has a lot of problems, and while I don’t know a lot about Gaza’s internal affairs they’re probably not the people who should be ruling Gaza after the conflict ends. That said, one of the things they do right is following ceasefire agreements until it’s obvious Israel has no intention of doing the same (2008 and 2012 come to mind).
Hamas has historically participated in ceasefire agreements in good faith.
Not in the last years that come in my mind, It was Islamic Jihad in 2022 but they couldn’t do without Hamas allowing them to. Every single time it was games who started escalation, even if they’ve claimed that it was “defending of Al Aqsa” or something similar
hell they didn’t completely follow the current agreement
Yes, Israel have, they haven’t attacked and released prisoners they should’ve and allowed trucks with humanitarian aid, while Hamas carried a terror attack in Jerusalem (yesterday)
Edit: Citation needed.
Israel continued bombing, albeit with a reduced frequency, throughout the period of the current pause. That’s not following anything.Also I can’t find that thing about 2022.
Israel haven’t continued bombing in the time of the current ceasefire, can you please give the source of the claim?
Okay I checked now and I actually can’t find it. I guess I’ll have to take that back until I can find a source.
I agree that if these documents were released a year ago, it was a terrible decision made by the government.
But at the same time, Hamas has never had a good faith. Ofc, if you don’t consider killing all Jews a good faith.
Hamas has never had a good faith.
That’s not what the word “good faith” means.
Agreed, I should have said “good intentions”
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I’m not expressing any opinion one way or the other on this instance, but I think we might want to keep in mind that with hindsight, predictive signals can always be pointed to. It says Israeli authorities heard of the plan but didn’t consider the plan plausible. How many plans do they discard as implausible? Is this something they do 5 times a day, where they were 100% correct until this day, when they were only 4/5 correct? I think it would take a lot of knowledge about intelligence work and these particular reports to really decide if a gross mistake was made or worse, there’s complicity.
I’m not excusing Israel or making claims one way or the other. But I recall this with 9/11 and other episodes too: with hindsight we can always find signals that were there but didn’t get the attention they needed. This doesn’t always signal wilfull negligence.
If this is true then they really fucked up and it bit them in the ass.
Judicial reforms = dead after Oct 7th
Approval rating = in the toilet, unlikely to win next election
It is a bad outcome for Bibi and he’s never really had much interest in Gaza till now.
I think they honestly were too distracted with keeping themselves in power with their judicial reforms. They got warnings but those seemed vague compared to the threat of corruption charges they were personally facing. They fucked up.
I mean, it’s a good outcome because they can bomb the hell out of Gaza.
I don’t doubt that every member of his party would love to kill as many Palestinians as possible, but I don’t think they’d prioritize doing so at the expense of their political careers.
They probably think their careers are safe.
Time will tell if that’s true.
Well at least one of Israels ministers have called Hamas an asset, so it doesn’t surprise me.
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
The translated document, which was reviewed by The New York Times, did not set a date for the attack, but described a methodical assault designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the Gaza Strip, take over Israeli cities and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters.
The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.
Then, in July, just three months before the attacks, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200, Israel’s signals intelligence agency, warned that Hamas had conducted an intense, daylong training exercise that appeared similar to what was outlined in the blueprint.
The Jericho Wall document lays bare a yearslong cascade of missteps that culminated in what officials now regard as the worst Israeli intelligence failure since the surprise attack that led to the Arab-Israeli war of 1973.
It detailed rocket attacks to distract Israeli soldiers and send them hurrying into bunkers, and drones to disable the elaborate security measures along the border fence separating Israel and Gaza.
During the exercise, Hamas fighters used the same phrase from the Quran that appeared at the top of the Jericho Wall attack plan, she wrote in the email exchanges viewed by The Times.
The original article contains 1,582 words, the summary contains 235 words. Saved 85%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Have those documents been released or have the quotes been recorded somewhere?
If Israel prevented it they couldn’t play the victim card
Everyone in this thread is reminding me of all the “bush did 9/11!” Crazies
It’s a pretty well recorded technique of US intelligence to push a much more extreme and clearly false narrative to undermine the distribution of the less extreme version which is more plausible and problematic.
So we see nutty theories around thermite online leading people to associate any complicity in 9/11 with unhinged theorists, conveniently overshadowing the far less extreme scenario where actionable intelligence around an attack was shelved because of the opportunities such an attack would create on the international stage.
My favorite example of the technique in action was how in the 1950s, the same year UFO sightings made the front page of Washington DC local newspapers, one of the CIA’s psyops recruits who had graduated MIT in only 3 years suddenly leaves the agency to buy up a struggling national news brand called The National Enquirer. Not long after, no self-respecting news organization was running stories about UFO sightings on any page, let alone the front page.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Cheney had meddled with intelligence that resulted in a major oversight - who even knows what was in all the documents he burned when leaving office. And we know for a fact they had no qualms with messing with intelligence reporting soon after with WMDs in Iraq or outing the wife of a critic.
Similarly, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Netanyahu had a hand in actively preventing proper action being taken on the warnings of an attack leading up to it. Less than 2 weeks before the attacks he was facing supreme court judicial review of his latest grasp to maintain power which was a process going until Jan 2024. And right in the middle of that he’s now ended up in a war.
Orchestrating an attack is a huge (and unlikely) conspiracy. Conveniently fucking up is plausibly deniable, especially if you seed a few more extreme and unhinged associated theories to discredit anyone suggesting you intentionally screwed up.
Yeah but IDF soldiers themselves have reported that the information they provided was completely ignored by Israel a month or so before the attack. There is public documents showing Bibi funded Hamas.
I think this one was gross negligence on purpose to find a reason to genocide Gaza.
Two cases of leaders selectively choosing not to believe credible intelligence of a threat to innocent lives when it’s politically convenient to do so?
Which parts of it?
I don’t think Netanyahu orchestrated it if that matters. Same idea as Bush
We should investigate when leadership benefits from a tragedy. We should investigate the decisions that allowed a tragedy to take place. That’s how we prevent future tragedies
Bush really does bear a lot of responsibility for 9/11. In almost direct parallel. He shifted the FBI away from counter terror and then ignored intelligence warning of the attack. Rather than Netanyahu ignoring intelligence in order to move troops off the border.
Everyone ignored Osama, even Clinton
