Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone on Wednesday accompanying five Chinese warships engaged in "combat readiness" patrols, the island's defence ministry said, the second such incursion this week.
That literally only happened because the USSR and China would not and could not vote on it (respectively) because the UN was insisting that the KMT who only controlled taiwan were the legitimate representatives of china, and the USSR was boycotting the UN votes on principle.
The point isn’t “UN is infallible” the point is “Even anti-communist countries in the UN agreed that PRC is the legitimate government of all of China.”
Yes, the UN is an authority on what most nations once thought, if that’s all that’s being argued for. At one point there was an understanding that Taiwan is to be de facto independent and de jure a part of China. Now China is pushing back on the de facto independence a bit, and the US is pushing back on the de jure union with China a bit.
The UN proper is not an authority on anything other than what clubhouse members publicly agree, and can’t otherwise be used as an argument from authority, which is how this came across.
As a french dude, and given our history, I have no choice but to stand against all imperialisms. Claiming a territory against the will of its people is exactly what imperialism is. France has done that for centuries along with most of the european powers of the time. Imperialism is criminal, it is murderous, and profoundly unjust. It is nothing less than colonisation. Just let people live on their own terms.
Claiming a territory against the will of its people is exactly what imperialism is
In case you’re interested in learning more about imperialism from a Marxist perspective, I’d recommend Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism. You don’t have to agree with it, but I don’t believe you can have a complete understanding of the way Global South countries have been exploited and subjugated in the last century or so without being aware of the arguments made in this book. The fact that so many of the post WW2 anti-colonial liberation movements were ML or MLM should tell you something.
Also, China doesn’t have to claim anything. Elsewhere in this thread people have already pointed out that under International Law Chinese Taipei is already part of China. No country in the world recognizes the ROC or Taiwan as an independent country. To the extent that the populace of the island has a position on this, it’s split between wanting to retain a special status within China or separatism. And let’s be real here, no country in the world is down with separatist movements. Ask the Kurds, or the Basques, or the Catalonians, or the Chechens etc etc. Hell, let Texas try and secede and see what happens. Realistically, only once Capitalism and Nationalism are both dead and forgotten can humanity start to move away from this geopolitical reality.
Also, China doesn’t have to claim anything. Elsewhere in this thread people have already pointed out that under International Law Chinese Taipei is already part of China.
How foreign countries consider Taiwan may very well define reality, it’s also illegitimate. Would you let someone else tell you what you are ? I consider the only valid stance as per the independence of a territory to be what its citizens have democratically decided.
I gather from your reply we’re not actually debating this, my bad.
To the extent that the populace of the island has a position on this, it’s split between wanting to retain a special status within China or separatism
Other countries recognition of your government is one of the key parts of having a government be the government of the place and not a band of dudes in charge. International recognition has long been used as a bargining token by most countries. It wouldn’t be used if it wasn’t incredibly valuable. Want to join the un? Be recognized by other un members. Want to be able to sign treaties and deals? Need recognition that you’re a real state.
If you’d like to try being constructive, you can drop the FFS and follow up with reading advice, for instance, or a bit of your own. It doesn’t have to be long winded, it can just be a couple sentences. This is a good habit to make your own, and replace the waving off with.
The opposition is not “the people”. “The people” just want to live peaceful lives without having the US betting their empire on causing WW III in their backyard. In order to properly oppose imperialism, especially as a first worlder, you need to understand the class interests of monopoly capital and how the emergence of finance capital combining with the force and violence of the state is where imperialism comes from. China has never couped a sitting head of state in order to create a banana republic to enslave the populations and resources of another country. There’s valid criticisms to be made but ur shooting yourself in the dick if you’re criticizing without education on it.
Right, I am quite uneducated on China, I’m only speaking from experience discussing with people from Taiwan. I certainly don’t intend to wear a phallus cast
In my experiences talking with most non-right wing Taiwanese people is simply that they want peace and to not be used as a geopolitical pawn for imperialist motives. I think this is a fairly reasonable position and would hope for at least some form of peaceful rapprochement where some amount of autonomy can be established like in the other autonomous regions in China.
The issue is that the current western hegemonic world order helmed by the US is seeking a point of conflict with China to prevent them from effectively disrupting the current status quo which you are probably aware of: imperialism, neocolonialism and unequal exchange. With capitalisms need to continually expand we see again it’s need for war in order to establish new markets. Its probably humanity’s number one priority to prevent the upcoming world crisis and as many emerging wars as possible (especially considering what that would do to climate change). Combatting the propaganda designed to manufacture consent for an upcoming war with China is the most important thing that a leftist can be doing in regards to geopolitics.
With capitalisms need to continually expand we see again it’s need for war in order to establish new markets.
I can understand that. The reliance on war economy is something I learned from Daniel Guérin in “Fascism & capital”.
The issue is that the current western hegemonic world order helmed by the US is seeking a point of conflict with China to prevent them from effectively disrupting the current status quo
Alright
Combatting the propaganda designed to manufacture consent for an upcoming war with China is the most important thing that a leftist can be doing in regards to geopolitics
Fair enough, I understand. Thanks for the breakdown
Lenin undertook his detailed study of Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism in 1916, basing it on the research of an English economist named Hobson. His analysis continues to explain what is happening in the world today as we enter the 21st Century.
Lenin saw capitalism evolving into a higher stage. The key to understanding it was an economic analysis of the transition to monopoly: “…imperialism is the monopoly stage of capitalism.” As Lenin would point out in another article written in 1916 (Imperialism and the Split in Socialism), imperialism was a new development that had been predicted but not yet seen by Marx and Engels.
Lenin provides a careful, 5-point definition of imperialism: “(1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; (2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy; (3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; (4) the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and (5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed.”
the bourgeoisie are increasingly compelled by a falling rate of profit to use their dominance of the state apparatus to open new markets or access to resource extraction
You continue your shit hole’s history of imperialism by dictating what is right and wrong for a colored mans nation to do in a faraway geopolitical situation you are largely uninformed about. And the fucking gall of using the bloody history of your barbaric country’s colonial exploits as a way to give such pontifications some form of authority. Lmao shut the fuck up and sit down you arrogant bastard.
There are ways to say things without being overly agressive. Take a deep breath. Remember, people aren’t their country. I wouldn’t associate you with some warfare your country has committed, because I have no reason to assume you have anything to do with it. All the best,
Pick one lmfao ofc you aren’t a representative of your entire pissant failed state but the fact remains that your shameful nationality is the only real thing you grounded the validity of your pontifications on. I will be “overly aggressive” towards imperialist troglodytes like yourself and you will do nothing but continue to cry, whine, and seethe because you are an illiterate maggotbrained shit who stands on nothing.
The only people who have the damn right to speak on the issue of imperialism are the victims of your demonic nation and their descendants, not the legacy of the evil bastards who committed such evil crimes against humanity in the first place. Especially since the fucking country you point to is still entangled in a multitude of white supremacist neocolonialist atrocities to this day, utterly ridiculous whataboutery and arrogance but not surprising from a white frenchoid.
As an actual Chinese person, my disdain for the KMT runs a bit deeper than that.
Fuck Chiang Kai-Shek from the bottom of my heart. He pleaded for help from the CCP, then betrayed and butchered the communists who were helping him. Just look at the Shanghai massacre. He then purged anyone even vaguely left wing from the Kumingtang.
I never abandoned my ideals, they were always fuck the ROC to begin with. How do you think he lost the civil war in China? He lost popular support because he was a backstabbing vermin. He should be in a deeper layer of hell than even Reagan and Thatcher.
god it was so confusing having a prof explain this whole history while adamantly backing the KMT/ROC. I was a lib at the time so I didn’t know how to process it but even then I was like wait he seems like a fucking asshole wtf is wrong with you.
Nice try, but pointing out liberals being hypocrites has nothing to do with abandoning our own ideals. What’s being said is that you lot claim that’s how things should work and you don’t follow your own rules.
I’m not obligated to respect laws when the laws don’t respect human rights. Slavery was legal at once point. The holocaust was legal at one point. Was I ever obligated to respect those laws?
There’s really no reason to believe western oligarch owned media over Chinese state media. Of course, western propagandists rely on people such as yourself being already primed to believe the worst possible things about China making their work pretty easy.
Good thing you’re doing sober examination and study into life in China without western bias, how it has improved real living conditions for its people, and applying that principle equally across the board
Your day-to-day life…on the massive globally interconnected computer network shared by everyone worldwide who has the means to connect to it? You didn’t expect to see an opinion held by well over 1 billion people on that network, ever?
Daily reminder that the Taiwan Province is an inalienable part of the People’s Republic of China:
And that this is recognized by the United Nations ever since 1971 after UNGAR 2758.
Source, page 546: https://web.archive.org/web/20230503050030/https://legal.un.org/unjuridicalyearbook/pdfs/english/volumes/2010.pdf
Video of the votes happening: https://invidious.projectsegfau.lt/watch?v=sfOIEjuXFyU
Reminder that the UN also invaded Korea.
That literally only happened because the USSR and China would not and could not vote on it (respectively) because the UN was insisting that the KMT who only controlled taiwan were the legitimate representatives of china, and the USSR was boycotting the UN votes on principle.
The point isn’t “UN is infallible” the point is “Even anti-communist countries in the UN agreed that PRC is the legitimate government of all of China.”
Yes, the UN is an authority on what most nations once thought, if that’s all that’s being argued for. At one point there was an understanding that Taiwan is to be de facto independent and de jure a part of China. Now China is pushing back on the de facto independence a bit, and the US is pushing back on the de jure union with China a bit.
The UN proper is not an authority on anything other than what clubhouse members publicly agree, and can’t otherwise be used as an argument from authority, which is how this came across.
As a french dude, and given our history, I have no choice but to stand against all imperialisms. Claiming a territory against the will of its people is exactly what imperialism is. France has done that for centuries along with most of the european powers of the time. Imperialism is criminal, it is murderous, and profoundly unjust. It is nothing less than colonisation. Just let people live on their own terms.
In case you’re interested in learning more about imperialism from a Marxist perspective, I’d recommend Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism. You don’t have to agree with it, but I don’t believe you can have a complete understanding of the way Global South countries have been exploited and subjugated in the last century or so without being aware of the arguments made in this book. The fact that so many of the post WW2 anti-colonial liberation movements were ML or MLM should tell you something.
Also, China doesn’t have to claim anything. Elsewhere in this thread people have already pointed out that under International Law Chinese Taipei is already part of China. No country in the world recognizes the ROC or Taiwan as an independent country. To the extent that the populace of the island has a position on this, it’s split between wanting to retain a special status within China or separatism. And let’s be real here, no country in the world is down with separatist movements. Ask the Kurds, or the Basques, or the Catalonians, or the Chechens etc etc. Hell, let Texas try and secede and see what happens. Realistically, only once Capitalism and Nationalism are both dead and forgotten can humanity start to move away from this geopolitical reality.
Thanks, appreciate the reading suggestion!
How foreign countries consider Taiwan may very well define reality, it’s also illegitimate. Would you let someone else tell you what you are ? I consider the only valid stance as per the independence of a territory to be what its citizens have democratically decided. I gather from your reply we’re not actually debating this, my bad.
Yes, this is my experience as well
Other countries recognition of your government is one of the key parts of having a government be the government of the place and not a band of dudes in charge. International recognition has long been used as a bargining token by most countries. It wouldn’t be used if it wasn’t incredibly valuable. Want to join the un? Be recognized by other un members. Want to be able to sign treaties and deals? Need recognition that you’re a real state.
Yes you’re right
You mean like when the KMT fled to Taiwan, brutalized the natives, and colonized it, imposing four decades of martial law?
To be fair, that isn’t the fault of the Fr*nch.
i’m sure we could figure out a way the french are responsible for this with a little time and creativity
In this case it is more the fault of the Dutch.
can we blame the french for the dutch existing? let’s get some people on this
Learn what imperialism is FFS. Throwing around words you don’t know the meaning of serves no purpose but to make you appear foolish
If you’d like to try being constructive, you can drop the FFS and follow up with reading advice, for instance, or a bit of your own. It doesn’t have to be long winded, it can just be a couple sentences. This is a good habit to make your own, and replace the waving off with.
Ta geule putain you are French! You deserve no more of a civil response lmao suck it up and go find the reading yourself
Thanks for the advice, will read up on this !
Yes you will “read up on” finding the reading yourself
lmao I’ll give you a hint, start with “Settlers” by J. Sakai
Imperalism by Lenin as has already been recomended for starters
Appreciate it
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The opposition is the people. Do you actually know anyone from Taiwan ?
The opposition is not “the people”. “The people” just want to live peaceful lives without having the US betting their empire on causing WW III in their backyard. In order to properly oppose imperialism, especially as a first worlder, you need to understand the class interests of monopoly capital and how the emergence of finance capital combining with the force and violence of the state is where imperialism comes from. China has never couped a sitting head of state in order to create a banana republic to enslave the populations and resources of another country. There’s valid criticisms to be made but ur shooting yourself in the dick if you’re criticizing without education on it.
Right, I am quite uneducated on China, I’m only speaking from experience discussing with people from Taiwan. I certainly don’t intend to wear a phallus cast
In my experiences talking with most non-right wing Taiwanese people is simply that they want peace and to not be used as a geopolitical pawn for imperialist motives. I think this is a fairly reasonable position and would hope for at least some form of peaceful rapprochement where some amount of autonomy can be established like in the other autonomous regions in China.
The issue is that the current western hegemonic world order helmed by the US is seeking a point of conflict with China to prevent them from effectively disrupting the current status quo which you are probably aware of: imperialism, neocolonialism and unequal exchange. With capitalisms need to continually expand we see again it’s need for war in order to establish new markets. Its probably humanity’s number one priority to prevent the upcoming world crisis and as many emerging wars as possible (especially considering what that would do to climate change). Combatting the propaganda designed to manufacture consent for an upcoming war with China is the most important thing that a leftist can be doing in regards to geopolitics.
I can understand that. The reliance on war economy is something I learned from Daniel Guérin in “Fascism & capital”.
Alright
Fair enough, I understand. Thanks for the breakdown
Happy to help
I’d recommend reading imperialism: the highest stage of capitalism by lenin and Neocolonialism the last stage of imperialism by kwame nkrumah in your spare time if you’ve got the chance, really great definitive insights into both concepts.
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lol, that’s an answer worthy of a five year old right here. But it does answer my question fairly transparently.
the bourgeoisie are increasingly compelled by a falling rate of profit to use their dominance of the state apparatus to open new markets or access to resource extraction
Opinion rejected
You continue your shit hole’s history of imperialism by dictating what is right and wrong for a colored mans nation to do in a faraway geopolitical situation you are largely uninformed about. And the fucking gall of using the bloody history of your barbaric country’s colonial exploits as a way to give such pontifications some form of authority. Lmao shut the fuck up and sit down you arrogant bastard.
There are ways to say things without being overly agressive. Take a deep breath. Remember, people aren’t their country. I wouldn’t associate you with some warfare your country has committed, because I have no reason to assume you have anything to do with it. All the best,
Pick one lmfao ofc you aren’t a representative of your entire pissant failed state but the fact remains that your shameful nationality is the only real thing you grounded the validity of your pontifications on. I will be “overly aggressive” towards imperialist troglodytes like yourself and you will do nothing but continue to cry, whine, and seethe because you are an illiterate maggotbrained shit who stands on nothing.
The only people who have the damn right to speak on the issue of imperialism are the victims of your demonic nation and their descendants, not the legacy of the evil bastards who committed such evil crimes against humanity in the first place. Especially since the fucking country you point to is still entangled in a multitude of white supremacist neocolonialist atrocities to this day, utterly ridiculous whataboutery and arrogance but not surprising from a white frenchoid.
“well if the UN is saying it”
~lemmygrad, when its useful
Last I checked liberals are all about respecting rules and international law, so we’re just holding you to your own standards here.
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As an actual Chinese person, my disdain for the KMT runs a bit deeper than that.
Fuck Chiang Kai-Shek from the bottom of my heart. He pleaded for help from the CCP, then betrayed and butchered the communists who were helping him. Just look at the Shanghai massacre. He then purged anyone even vaguely left wing from the Kumingtang.
I never abandoned my ideals, they were always fuck the ROC to begin with. How do you think he lost the civil war in China? He lost popular support because he was a backstabbing vermin. He should be in a deeper layer of hell than even Reagan and Thatcher.
god it was so confusing having a prof explain this whole history while adamantly backing the KMT/ROC. I was a lib at the time so I didn’t know how to process it but even then I was like wait he seems like a fucking asshole wtf is wrong with you.
You Libs clearly have very little conviction to your “rules based order” and drop it the second it becomes a barrier to US hegemony.
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Your mom already gives me plenty of jerk off material.
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luv 2 get all my political opinions from literal paid shills
IDK your mom looks pretty fine to me, whatever the western media says
Guess the good genes didn’t carry over to you though
Nice try, but pointing out liberals being hypocrites has nothing to do with abandoning our own ideals. What’s being said is that you lot claim that’s how things should work and you don’t follow your own rules.
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can you point to where in this thread you made any claim that can be argued with? all I see is whining about communists.
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you made claims but mostly about the people posting. snarky asides aren’t points to be debated.
Does your mommy chew your food for you too?
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it’s not so much that the joke’s on you, but rather that you embody the joke
praising good things and criticizing bad ones is abandoning my ideals. I am very smart.
they’re not abandoning their ideals they’re pointing out that liberals only hold to their own convictions when it’s convenient
“respect the rule of international law!” “ummmmmmm but not when they agree on things i don’t like”
Just curious, why did you spell it this way?
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Translated:
I’m not obligated to respect laws when the laws don’t respect human rights. Slavery was legal at once point. The holocaust was legal at one point. Was I ever obligated to respect those laws?
The PRC objectively has a better human rights record than the RoC.
Good thing China has a far better human rights record than the west.
It really doesn’t unless you believe the state media that’s allowed to come out of it. Even then, they publicly reject any lgbt type content.
Calling it “vulgar, immoral and unhealthy content”.
Even going so far as to jail a women for 10 years for producing BL content.
There’s really no reason to believe western oligarch owned media over Chinese state media. Of course, western propagandists rely on people such as yourself being already primed to believe the worst possible things about China making their work pretty easy.
The second article is AnimeNewsNetwork and they link to Chinese owned media.
The second article links to Malaysian media.
Is Jin Xing just a hallucination on my part?
Good thing you’re doing sober examination and study into life in China without western bias, how it has improved real living conditions for its people, and applying that principle equally across the board
Never, ever have I thought I’d see the words “台灣是中國神聖不可分割的一部分” in English being used unironically.
So…you thought sharing a common language precluded having differing opinions? That’s kinda astonishing, ngl
To be honest I never thought I’d see those words even in Chinese being used unironically either.
You thought no Chinese people supported the One China Policy? Seriously?
I’m sure a lot do. I just don’t expect to see them in my day-to-day life.
Your day-to-day life…on the massive globally interconnected computer network shared by everyone worldwide who has the means to connect to it? You didn’t expect to see an opinion held by well over 1 billion people on that network, ever?
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perhaps that’s you being in a bubble? I don’t hear a lot of chinese opinions on anything because I can’t read the primary sources.
china wouldn’t do sabre rattling if the united states wasn’t the global hegemon doing global hegemony things.
Seems like you haven’t met very many people
I think your expectations seem a bit out of line with reality.
Propaganda happend to you it taints your view in dark color …
tell me , what did Assage do that other journalist dont ?