It’s a question of proportionality. I’m generally sympathetic to the impossibility of waging war without civilian collateral damage, but Israel is clearly taking very little care to minimize civilian casualties with indiscriminate artillery fire and air strikes, and on the heels of an already legally questionable attack on Hezbollah just previously.
Civilians die in war. It’s ugly. I get that. But there’s no excuse for any supposedly modern and civilized state to not attempt to minimize civilian casualties proportional to the military objectives targeted.
I don’t think it’s clear that they are not trying to minimize civilian casualties, it’s hard to imagine a more targeted attack than the pager attack.
I don’t know what the numbers are like for the Lebanon part of the war, obviously, but in almost all modern conflicts we see that between 25 and 80% of casualties are civilians. I imagine we’re on the high end here as hezbollah like to fight and hide amongst civilians and use them as shields.
I struggle to see how you can combat such an organization without heavy civilian casualties, no matter how you go about it. I’m not saying the Israelis are not making mistakes or even being disproportionate at times, but I just can’t see how you’re going to fight hezbollah without heavy collateral damage.
I don’t know what the numbers are like for the Lebanon part of the war, obviously, but in almost all modern conflicts we see that between 25 and 80% of casualties are civilians.
Bruh, in Iraq and Afghanistan, where Coalition forces were (rightly) condemned for using insufficiently discriminate force, our civilian casualty rate ranged from 15%-30%, with the higher proportion present in Iraq during the initial stages of the ‘shock and awe’ invasion.
Gonna go ahead and say if Israel is getting significantly worse numbers than in Fallujah, with the US in Fallujah having 2004-era tech and intel in a region that we were not well-established in, and Israel having 20 years of development in computerization of the military and a long-standing intelligence presence in the area, something is seriously fucked.
I imagine we’re on the high end here as hezbollah like to fight and hide amongst civilians and use them as shields.
Firing from a populated residential area in order to use civilians as a shield is commonly accepted as a war crime.
Likewise, indiscriminately shelling the residential area in response is also commonly accepted as a war crime.
I struggle to see how you can combat such an organization without heavy civilian casualties, no matter how you go about it. I’m not saying the Israelis are not making mistakes or even being disproportionate at times, but I just can’t see how you’re going to fight hezbollah without heavy collateral damage.
Like I said - I’m not unsympathetic to the fact that collateral damage IS going to happen. But Israel’s actions have been anything but proportionate.
You do know that Hamas has been firing missiles indiscriminately since February 2002. How many other countries are expected to just put up with being attacked on a near daily basis for two decades?
I am well aware that Hamas, the faction supported by Israel to undercut Fatah so Israel wouldn’t have to take a two-state solution seriously, are a bunch of shitheads.
It’s also worth recognizing that the creation of the PA in the West Bank is a classic Counter Insurgency tactic. Used by Israel to quell resistance in the West Bank while they continued to expand seller colonies to divide the West Bank
This “human shield” line is Israel’s most effective propaganda to date. They’ve used it repeatedly with Hamas and now rolling it out in Lebanon to waive away concerns about killing civilians
When you unpack it it is a meaningless statement. All military command centres in the world are in urban locations.
NATO is in Brussels. The UK Ministry of Defence is in London. Mossad is in Tel Aviv. Are all these countries using “human shields”?
It is not smart to have your most important military centres sitting in an isolated field somewhere.
It is not a meaningless statement at all. Hamas have been deliberately using civilians as human shields since at least the second infatida. They have publicly admitted as much on numerous occasions going back to 2008. They use mosques, hospitals and UNRWA schools as weapons caches and launch sites.
If you look at the actual evidence about Human Shields, and not just IDF sources, it becomes clear that Israel justifies it’s deliberate attacks on civilians with that excuse. Bombing a residential area with civilians and claiming Human Shields does not make it any less of a war crime.
Tthere are some independent reports for past conflicts of Hamas jeopardizing the safety of civilians via Rocket fire in dense urban areas, two instances during Oct 7th, but no independent verification since then so far. None of which absolve Israel of the crime of targeting civilians under international law:
Intentionally utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain areas immune from military attack is prohibited under international law. Amnesty International was not able to establish whether or not the fighters’ presence in the camps was intended to shield themselves from military attacks. However, under international humanitarian law, even if one party uses “human shields”, or is otherwise unlawfully endangering civilians, this does not absolve the opposing party from complying with its obligations to distinguish between military objectives and civilians or civilian objects, to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians and civilian objects.
You know both Hezbollah & Hamas exist today because of Israel. If Israel had found a solution to peacefully co-exist with their neighbors, we wouldn’t be here today commenting on this article. Israel has historically used disproportionate measures toward, anyone who opposes it. Just look at the graph of rockets fired by Hezbollah or Hamas vs those fired by Israel, and mind you none of them have an iron dome to protect their civilians and still Israel is playing the victimhood card.
The only way to bring long-lasting peace would be for Israel to grant Palestinians civil rights, and start treating them fairly, and not build plenty of checkpoints, and walls, and evict them, practically making their lives miserable. It is kind of sad, that all this is coming from a nation that was oppressed so much during the years, but yes, they seem to have learned nothing from their own history.
It’s a question of proportionality. I’m generally sympathetic to the impossibility of waging war without civilian collateral damage, but Israel is clearly taking very little care to minimize civilian casualties with indiscriminate artillery fire and air strikes, and on the heels of an already legally questionable attack on Hezbollah just previously.
Civilians die in war. It’s ugly. I get that. But there’s no excuse for any supposedly modern and civilized state to not attempt to minimize civilian casualties proportional to the military objectives targeted.
I don’t think it’s clear that they are not trying to minimize civilian casualties, it’s hard to imagine a more targeted attack than the pager attack.
I don’t know what the numbers are like for the Lebanon part of the war, obviously, but in almost all modern conflicts we see that between 25 and 80% of casualties are civilians. I imagine we’re on the high end here as hezbollah like to fight and hide amongst civilians and use them as shields.
I struggle to see how you can combat such an organization without heavy civilian casualties, no matter how you go about it. I’m not saying the Israelis are not making mistakes or even being disproportionate at times, but I just can’t see how you’re going to fight hezbollah without heavy collateral damage.
Bruh, in Iraq and Afghanistan, where Coalition forces were (rightly) condemned for using insufficiently discriminate force, our civilian casualty rate ranged from 15%-30%, with the higher proportion present in Iraq during the initial stages of the ‘shock and awe’ invasion.
Gonna go ahead and say if Israel is getting significantly worse numbers than in Fallujah, with the US in Fallujah having 2004-era tech and intel in a region that we were not well-established in, and Israel having 20 years of development in computerization of the military and a long-standing intelligence presence in the area, something is seriously fucked.
Firing from a populated residential area in order to use civilians as a shield is commonly accepted as a war crime.
Likewise, indiscriminately shelling the residential area in response is also commonly accepted as a war crime.
Like I said - I’m not unsympathetic to the fact that collateral damage IS going to happen. But Israel’s actions have been anything but proportionate.
You do know that Hamas has been firing missiles indiscriminately since February 2002. How many other countries are expected to just put up with being attacked on a near daily basis for two decades?
I am well aware that Hamas, the faction supported by Israel to undercut Fatah so Israel wouldn’t have to take a two-state solution seriously, are a bunch of shitheads.
It’s also worth recognizing that the creation of the PA in the West Bank is a classic Counter Insurgency tactic. Used by Israel to quell resistance in the West Bank while they continued to expand seller colonies to divide the West Bank
That’s the direct result of Israel colonizing palestine. Do you know that the blockade predate Hamas creation?
I’m sure Israel eagerly awaits Hezbollah’s summons to the Hague.
I’m the meantime, if you fire a rocket at another country, it’s going to get blown up no matter where it is.
You know this goes two ways, right? Right?!?
This “human shield” line is Israel’s most effective propaganda to date. They’ve used it repeatedly with Hamas and now rolling it out in Lebanon to waive away concerns about killing civilians
When you unpack it it is a meaningless statement. All military command centres in the world are in urban locations.
NATO is in Brussels. The UK Ministry of Defence is in London. Mossad is in Tel Aviv. Are all these countries using “human shields”?
It is not smart to have your most important military centres sitting in an isolated field somewhere.
It is not a meaningless statement at all. Hamas have been deliberately using civilians as human shields since at least the second infatida. They have publicly admitted as much on numerous occasions going back to 2008. They use mosques, hospitals and UNRWA schools as weapons caches and launch sites.
If you look at the actual evidence about Human Shields, and not just IDF sources, it becomes clear that Israel justifies it’s deliberate attacks on civilians with that excuse. Bombing a residential area with civilians and claiming Human Shields does not make it any less of a war crime.
Tthere are some independent reports for past conflicts of Hamas jeopardizing the safety of civilians via Rocket fire in dense urban areas, two instances during Oct 7th, but no independent verification since then so far. None of which absolve Israel of the crime of targeting civilians under international law:
Human Shields
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza - July 2014
HRW - Palestinian Armed Groups’ October 7 Assault on Israel
Israel/OPT: Israeli attacks targeting Hamas and other armed group fighters that killed scores of displaced civilians in Rafah should be investigated as war crimes
HRW - Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis
Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields:
IDF uses Human Shields,
Including Children (2013 Report)
Israel “Systematically” Uses Gaza Children as Human Shields, Rights Group Finds 2024
Breaking The Silence - Testimonies from IDF Veterans
Deliberate Attacks on Civilians
Israel does deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so:
The Dahiya Doctrine & Israel’s Use of Disproportionate Force
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Lavender
Where’s Daddy
When it comes to Israeli Soldiers and Civilians, there is also the use of the Hannibal Directive, which was also used on Oct 7th.
You know both Hezbollah & Hamas exist today because of Israel. If Israel had found a solution to peacefully co-exist with their neighbors, we wouldn’t be here today commenting on this article. Israel has historically used disproportionate measures toward, anyone who opposes it. Just look at the graph of rockets fired by Hezbollah or Hamas vs those fired by Israel, and mind you none of them have an iron dome to protect their civilians and still Israel is playing the victimhood card.
The only way to bring long-lasting peace would be for Israel to grant Palestinians civil rights, and start treating them fairly, and not build plenty of checkpoints, and walls, and evict them, practically making their lives miserable. It is kind of sad, that all this is coming from a nation that was oppressed so much during the years, but yes, they seem to have learned nothing from their own history.