Don’t worry the House balances it*
*Until they froze the House because they couldn’t fit anymore chairs…
I’m not inherently opposed to the Senate as a concept, I think it can serve as an important check/balance, but for it to exist while the house has been capped and stripped of its offsetting powers is completely asinine. I also think that attempting to get anything done in the house with 1,000 members may also be unproductive however. Perhaps capping the house to a reasonable number of representatives while also adjusting voting power to proportionally match the most current census could work. Some representatives may cast 1.3 votes while others may cast .7 votes.
. I also think that attempting to get anything done in the house with 1,000 members may also be unproductive however
Kind of the opposite.
The less people, the more power each one has.
So if you need a couple votes you add some things people personally want that are completely unrelated to get them on board.
With twice the people, that becomes twice as hard. So the strategy would have to pivot to actual bipartisan legislation and not just cramming bribes and personal enrichments in there till it passes.
The thing about our political system, it’s been held together with duct tape so long, there’s nothing left but duct tape. We can keep slapping more on there and hoping for the best, at some point we’re gonna have to replace it with a system that actually works.
We might have been one of the first democracies, but lots of other countries took what we did and improved on it. It makes no logical sense to insist we stick with a bad system because we have a bad system.
Freezing the house did more damage than the Senate alone could ever do.
I understand where you’re coming from, I do. But hear me out.
Nebraska has a unicameral, we have only the Senate. Every district in the state sends a senator and that is the only legislative house.
The number of times a single senator from downtown Omaha has single handedly filibustered a fucking awful bill to prevent the state from fucking itself is more than I’d like to count.
For a while that senator was Ernie Chambers. A man who more than once made national news because a point he was trying to make by doing something crazy was lost in the woods and it just looked like a crazy old guy from Omaha was doing something crazy in the unicameral. Omaha and the state of Nebraska owes that man a lot.
A second house would be a huge barrier to the kind of fuckery they try to get up to in the unicameral.
I know the system isn’t perfect, but pulling out a safety net because it’s getting in your way sometimes is definitely not the answer you think it is.
Uncap the house, fuck it, make Congressperson a remote job, keep them in their districts. They don’t need to be physically present and in fact decentralizing the house might prevent some of the rampant corruption now that lobbyists suddenly have to travel all over the country to issue
bribes.campaign contributions.uncap the house… make congressperson a remote job, keep them in their districts.
I can’t say that’s my ideal solution (as it doesn’t involve completely rewriting our constitution), but that’s honestly the best solution we have to most of our problems. Completely uncap, remote congress, 1 per 30k. At that point, we’d be pretty close to a real democracy. There’s no reason why it couldn’t be a remote job. Stay in your fucking district where we can yell at you when you fuck up. In fact, there should be a law about how many days per year they can be out of their district. Live with, work with, know the people you represent. And with that many congressional reps, it’d be hard as hell to bribe enough of them.
I also agree with this idea.
On top of that, if it’s a remote job and they’re not all congregated in one room, harder to have a Jan. 6 type moment. Better for national security.
Jesus Christ, I’d honestly forgotten about the uncap the house movement, but it reminds me of all the shit we’re missing out on. We’d be a different country. Imagine knowing your congressperson personally? Seeing them at the grocery store. Being able to to speak to them. Hell, imagine from their point of view, being able to run for election and only having to worry about 30k voters/constituents, and tailoring campaigns to the areas you represent. Id they did it, I’d run, even in my conservative ass area, because at that point you can appeal to voters based on the things that actually plague their communities, instead of bullshit scare tactics and nationwide/statewide issues. I’m surrounded by MAGA morons, but in campaigns that small, you could win this area with a campaign based on legal weed, road construction and a push to make sure the factories around here can stay in business.
This is such a problem here (at least for me) in Canada that even my city councillors only care about talking with the rich and forget reaching out to anyone else. I don’t know how they plan to dictate proper policy when you don’t talk to constituents who aren’t stuffing your pockets.
I may be misremembering, but I believe the way things were originally designed was that the Senate was supposed to represent the states, not the people. The house represented the people. That’s why the Senate has equal representation (because the states were meant to have equal say), and the house proportionate to population.
Exactly. Eliminate the Senate, and you have Panem: An urban Capitol district unilaterally controlling the rural satellite districts.
No you don’t, because the House still favors small rural states after we froze the number.
If the House was proportional there’d be like 150 more representatives.
You take the population the smallest state because everyone gets at least 1, Wyoming at 580k, divide by population, 335 million.
And you get 578 Representatives.
Currently we have 435.
Leading to someone in Wyoming having like 9 times the House representation compared to a person in Cali if I’m remembering that right.
No you don’t, because the House still favors small rural states after we froze the number.
That is only partially accurate. Mathematically, the ideal congressional district will have 761,169 people.
States smaller than x=761,169 are overrepresented. Wyoming, Vermont, and Alaska are the only states that meet this criteria. Wyoming has 584,057 people for its at-large district. Wyoming residents have about 1.3 times the house representation as a person in California.
You also need to consider that Single-district states between 761,170 and 1,522,338 (2x) are underrepresented. They have more than enough people for a single district, but not quite enough people to warrant a second district. These are North Dakota, South Dakota, and Delaware. South Dakota has 919,318 people. A South Dakota resident has 0.83 the representation in the house that a California resident has.
Similarly, 2-district states smaller than 1,522,338 are are overrepresented. These are Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, and Rhode Island.
2-district states larger than 1,522,338 are underrepresented. These are Idaho and West Virginia.
The way the math works out, the larger the state, the less the deviation between actual and optimal representation. Interestingly, California is slightly overrepresented relative to the ideal district size.
Trying to fix our original system of government and update it for modern day iis like trying to turn a race horse into a Formula 1 racecar…
If you spend enough money and take enough time you could conceivably say you did it.
But why the fuck wouldn’t you just switch to a racecar when the racehorse couldn’t run anymore?
Why put the horse thru all that when you’re going to have to spend all that time with a freak combination as your only mode of transportation?
In this analogy it’s not just weeks or months, we’re talking decades and generations. Arguably centuries.
Hell, the first time universal healthcare was part of a presidential platform was Teddy Roosevelt literally a century ago.
We were born in the time of the geriatric racehorse pulling the racecar like a cart, and we need to decide if we’re gonna keep going for slow change, or just get it over with.
Cuz damn near anything we could be doing right now would give us better results. Especially since our parents are in the driver’s seat of the racecar since they can’t walk on their own and keep slamming the brakes because they have dementia and think it’s funny.
Replying here again to take the discussion a different direction… What if instead of each representative casting a single vote, they instead acted as a proxy, and cast one vote for each member of the district they represent? The Wyoming representative at large would cast 584,057 votes on every issue in the house. The Delaware representative would cast 989,948 votes. Vermont, 643,077 votes in the house.
We pay more in taxes than the welfare states, have less representation… Seems like there was something in US History about taxation without representation.
Secede. That’ll teach 'em.
Dare I say… defederate? *smugface*
And there we have the only reason why the US is as fucked up as it is.
If the US would have an actual democracy, Republicans would never ever ein anything anymore
They came up with the best thing they could agree on at the time. They did not intend on it to become sacred, untouchable, and without the ability to change with the times, and sometimes we have changed it. Just not quite enough times.
It may be one of those myths, but I remember that one of the founders initially were proposing the constitution to be rewritten every 10 years.
19 years, in a letter from Jefferson to Madison.
To James Madison from Thomas Jefferson, 6 September 1789
He thought that firstly no document or law could be forever relevant, so it needed revisioning occasionally, and the 19 years seems to tie into the idea of each generation taking a new look and either accepting existing laws as still good or making changes.
Land doesn’t vote, but groups do. The Constitution was written to accommodate both points, the Senate so each state has an equal vote, which is fair in respect to the fact that the Constitution is and agreement between states, and Congress where states with more people get more votes, because that is a legitimate perspective as well. It’s not perfect to start with, and it’s been modified poorly over time (representation hasn’t been kept proportional in Congress), but it is fair to say that each state having an equal vote is one valid point of view, and the founders realized that it wasn’t the only valid point of view.
Don’t attribute the ‘states rights’ phrase to me as though I’m on the wrong side of the civil war or something. The country can’t be entirely directed by states regardless of population, but the states can’t be directed by other states based solely on population either.
This is an example of why the House of Representatives also exists.
Except CA isn’t fairly represented in the House either. CA would need 68 representatives just to have the same representation as Wyoming.
And say, shouldn’t the states that have a huge economy and bring in more tax dollars have more of a say than the red welfare states that suck up those tax dollars? Just sayin…
I disagree with the economy part. Fuck that. Your value isn’t described by how much wealth you generate.
Republicans are (or were) hypocritical with their talk of fiscal responsibility while representing states that take in more money than they give back. This should be pointed out if they ever return to that argument. This isn’t to say poor people from republican states (or anywhere else) are less valuable though. It’s only hypocrisy that’s wrong, not trying to help lower income people that’s wrong.
CA would need 68 representatives just to have the same representation as Wyoming.
Every state is guaranteed one representative, and then otherwise by population. Wyoming has one representative.
Exactly and then based on that number what we SHOULD do is do proportionality based on that in the most even way possible. But then the issue is states like delaware with almost double Wyoming population would still be unequal since they would still get 1 representative but would be more fair for California. Congress shouldn’t have a capped number. Every population of Wyoming size should have one representative in Congress this would give California 68
How about selecting reps independently from home state in a national election. Every million people get to send someone from anywhere. The dakotas can share one
More representation the better I am cool with 250k or 500k. Easier to hold accountable
The number should have been capped smaller. As it is, there are too many representatives; it’s already impossibly hard to get anything through congress. If you want to make gridlock even worse, then sure, add more people.
No more representation the better. It is easier to vote someone out and be more engaged when there is a representative for every 250k to 500k people. I don’t agree one person should be able to gridlock congress though. Key thing is there is laws in the books to unlock more there would have to be a changing of a law to reduce then less people for billionaires to buy off
It’s not that any one person can gridlock Congress, but that the more people you have, the more difficult it is to get enough of them pointing in the same direction to get anything accomplished.
More people you have in Congress the higher chance their view will reflect America causing less grid lock on issues 60-70% believe in. It’s not like they wouldn’t be in the same party. Also you are more likely to replace bad actors since you will be more engaged and any lone wolf wouldn’t matter as much
It’s a government by rich owners for rich owners and it’s working as designed
And none of you poors can do anything about it.
To be fair, it is the united ´states´, not the united ´people living on the continent´. It wouldn’t be any more fair if California was making the decisions for 20 other states, just because they happen to have a crap load of people. The federal government is kind of supposed to be making decisions and maintaining things between states, not all these decisions affecting the people so directly.
Electorates per capita work better because they give the population of a country an equal amount of electable government. Positioning them as just Californians makes them a lower class citizen of the United States with lesser representation.
It also means that criminals will recognise the power of the Republican states and side with them for effect.
From one perspective, per capita is fair, but from another perspective it isn’t. The Constitution actually did a reasonable job of trying to address both cases, it just didn’t adequately account for such a huge swing in population and technology. One could argue that that is a failing of the people that came afterwards, since the Constitution also provided mechanisms for modification.
For an example of where it is not fair, consider an agreement between three groups and we all agree to vote on decisions that affect all three of us, say ‘how things are taxed’ or how often elections are held. Each group gets a vote, and 2 out of 3 wins. If that’s the agreement we entered into, my group would expect to get a vote now or a hundred years in the future even if your group grows it shrinks, it’s an agreement at the group level. Especially if we made considerations for a different type of vote that does take group membership size into account. It would be pretty shitty for your group to get big and insist that it should make all the decisions for me.
One person, one vote.
In Germany we have two votes, one for a local representative and one for a party. In itself it’s a pretty decent system
Yet, the local representatives in the pairlaments (Bundestag, Landtag) represent districts of approximately the same population number. Thus, in our first chamber, no vote has more value than another.
But in the Bundesrat, which comes closest to the US senate, states with higher population number do have more representatives than small states, which weakens the inequality of votes, yet still one vote from Bremen (population 700k, 3 representatives) has 13 times as much value as one from NRW (p. 18 mio, 6 rep.).
I’m not really happy with our democracy. It always feels like our say stops at the ballot box, we need more direct democracy.
Eight years ago I would have agreed. But, I think we’ve demonstrated the short comings of putting authority for our most important policies in the hands of your average citizen.
I don’t have a better answer, mind you. Hopefully someone way further right on the “average citizen” bell curve has better ideas.
I always thought it’d be interesting if one senator were elected only by the most populous municipality in each state.
Republicans would just create a mega-municipality of all the rural voters.
To be fair, small states would never agreed to the constution without the senate.
Southern states would not have agreed to the constitution without the 3/5 compromise.
The United States would not exist without these compromises. The constitition is, as CGP Grey calls it, a Compromise-titution.
Why don’t the more populous states, the larger of the two groups, simply eat the small states?
Because there this thing called the military and they swore an oath to uphold the constitution that that includes this odd electoral system.
🤷♂️
I mean there is a way to non-violently over throw this system. Just get people who vote democratic to move to red states while keeping at least 51% majority in their original state. Then vote in democrats, take over their state government. If coordinated correctly, we can take over 3/4 of state governments and have 3/4 of the US senate. Gerrymander (political gerrymandering is legal btw) enough districts and also win at least 2/3 of the house.
With all that in control, amend the constitution, repeal the clause that requires each state to have an equal number of senators. Then an amendment to abolish the senate, and giving any of its powers to the house.
I mean while we’re at it, make the house use proportional representation. And maybe even ranked choice voting system.
We have the technology to implement some direct democracy and get away from all this “represntitive democracy” that doesnt work so well. Let people vote on the actual issues and we’ll get progressive policies pretty quickly, we wont get into wars, we’ll spend much less on defense, and the corporatists wont be able to buy influence as easily.
i honestly don’t believe that any of this would be true. Unless you went the libertarian route and pretend that the people know better than the government at all levels. Maybe i’m just cynical. But there’s a federal government for a reason so.
so you dont beleive in democracy, sounds like.
i like democracy, just not when people are allowed to make decisions directly. Look at brexit.
Representative democracy, or something like the US has with actual electors who aren’t just idiots would be great. But unfortunately they’re also stupid.
Extremely low IQ meme considering this is the intended purpose of the senate.
Disagreeing with the intention of some 1700s guys is extremely low IQ?
The meme assumes this was somehow not be design. The entire function of the Senate is to counterbalance that in the same meme, California has more representatives in Congress overall + more electors.
Yes because it completely ignores the House of Representatives. It’s an ignorant post made by an idiot and defended by idiots
The senate and the house are intentionally different and serve different purposes
