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Study is done by “TheFire.org,” which is described as a competitor to the ACLU.
I know… why do we need a competitor to the ACLU?
Well, per Wikipedia: “FIRE has been described as a competitor of the ACLU. In 2021, the organization had an annual revenue of $16.1 million. FIRE has received major funding from groups which primarily support conservative and libertarian causes, including the Bradley Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, and the Charles Koch Institute.”
Oh Charles Koch, you scoundrel.
They have unmatched methods. Is there any other place on the internet with 2024 college free speech rankings?
Ahh yes a graph without citation of research, lovely
Let’s go a step further and analyze exactly what this graph is saying:
There’s only about a 20% distribution difference in the “never” sections between Christians and atheists. So on average, 4/5 atheists would answer the exact same as Christians. All this graph says is that Christians are barely more tolerant than people who identify as atheist. Barely is the key word. If anything, this graph proves that tolerance levels don’t fluctuate that much for the individual between differing religions.
But Bible thumpers need any win they can get, so they don’t read the data for what it is, they just see one bar longer than the other and declare victory.
I made a comment below, this is from a conservative research group funded by the remaining Koch brother, among other conservatives.
reminder that every time people complain about wokeness they’re literally just complaining about being conscious about systemic racism, because that’s what woke means.
Just replace “woke” with “being a decent person” and it becomes pretty clear what these people want.
I honestly can’t believe that using this word unironically has caught on. Everything I think is just a stupid joke on the internet turns out to be the internet reflecting just how idiotic humanity really is.
Either that, or just an unpleasant shock at just how ‘mask-off’ some people have become.
I’m going with the “mask off” probability.
Hey! It’s “being a decent person in a way not sanctioned by their local culture”. If you’re decent to the correct people with enough pandering imagery that’s fine.
“Woke” started out as a simple acknowledgment that a person is conscious of the systemic oppression of various groups. Now the right wing has got its claws into the term it’s been effectively neutered. Now all it means is, “stuff that right wingers don’t like”
It’s like “defund the police” which quickly became “abolish all policing”.
It’s a useful strategy for them and it works to prevent honest discussion on how to solve societal problems by preventing people from having a shared understanding of the language needed for such discussion.
“It’s like “defund the police” which quickly became “abolish all policing”.”
It’s actually the other way around. The radical demand got watered down but it didn’t slow the fearmongeringbl even a little bit
Maybe? I don’t have a definite timeline and there were lots of groups talking to each other.
Ugh, “defund the police” is a terrible phrase if you actually want the movement to succeed. I wish they would have gone with something along the lines of “police reform”. Immediately every conservative glommed onto “now they want to abolish all police!”
We do need a massive overhaul to police. Unfortunately that means better marketing of the idea of it’s going to happen.
I could be wrong but “defund the police” was just a discussion point for activists talking amongst themselves. In that context it makes sense. What happened was that this inelegant phrase was seized as a weapon by the right and then every Dem politician had to answer if they supported the idea of abolishing the police.
I’d imagine that many people would be receptive to the idea of taking some money out of police budgets so social workers and people trained in deescalation can be hired. For example cops aren’t a good fit when dealing with people facing mental health crises because they mostly turn to use of force and make a bad situation worse.
If you twist this into, “are you in favor of abolishing all police?” then most people are going to say, “hell no, what a stupid idea, you moron”.
Now any discussion about the rotten state of policing in the US had been effectively hobbled. Discussion is shut down. The right wing wins.
What happened was that this inelegant phrase was seized as a weapon by the right
I vividly remember tons of memes and posts on reddit, done in leftist grups by leftist people stating the sentence “defund the police”. The right did manipulate the meaning, but saying that they were the sole perpetrators of the popularity of the phrase is silly.
How many in number, would you say? 100? 200?
Same happened to the terms “political correctness” and “social justice”. The meaning gets twisted into something grotesque by think tanks and then it’s shipped out to talking heads so Billy-Bob can regurgitate it at the water cooler.
Critical Race Theory, school libraries full of porn, caravans of migrants heading to the southern border, activist judges legislating from the bench, and so on.
I still have a hard time how “woke” is bad. Woke means your not asleep, it means you are not guided by others. How can people turn this into a bad thing. I’m proud to be woke.
Woke means that if you’re in a privileged position in a society, more equality is a threat to your status and should be suppressed.
Lots of ‘woke’ people are shitty people. I’ve had way too many experiences in the past few years with ‘woke’ people screaming at me about how I need to read more women authors or I’m a shitty awful human being. Or other equally absurd things, like I’m a bigot if I don’t ask you what your pronoun is. If you have a pronoun preference, how about you tell me? Just like you tell someone how to pronounce your name if it’s non-standard.
I know lots of progressive people, and I am progressive. But I would never say I am ‘woke’. People who self-identify ‘woke’ tend to be mentally ill crazy people in my encounters, and use their politics as an excuse for abusive and hostile behavior just the way right-wing nazi nutbags do.
Hell I even had a transwoman assault me verbally one day while I was just reading a book in a cafe. Comes up to me and demands that I give her my table because I’m a white cis guy and I should give up my ‘privileged’ to her. I told her to f off. My small business has been harassed by ‘woke’ activists who demand we give them money or they will say we are anti-black/lgbt+, etc. That’s not woke, that’s blackmail.
Most ‘woke’ people I meet are basically 20 sometime trust-fund types who need a cause to give her their miserable lives purpose, because god knows they can’t get their shit together and do something positive with their lives. If they did maybe they’d stop being such awful abusive people who threaten and harass others.
Comes up to me and demands that I give her my table because I’m a white cis guy and I should give up my ‘privileged’ to her.
I’ll take “Things that never happened” for 600, Alex
Yea I don’t believe any of this. =)
Hell I even had a transwoman assault me verbally one day while I was just reading a book in a cafe. Comes up to me and demands that I give her my table because I’m a white cis guy and I should give up my ‘privileged’ to her. I told her to f off. My small business has been harassed by ‘woke’ activists who demand we give them money or they will say we are anti-black/lgbt+, etc. That’s not woke, that’s blackmail.
That transwoman? Albertina Einstein.
You do sound like a shitty awful human being if I’m to be honest.
Hell I even had a transwoman assault me verbally one day while I was just reading a book in a cafe. Comes up to me and demands that I give her my table because I’m a white cis guy and I should give up my ‘privileged’ to her.
I’m betting this never happened.
Except woke people aren’t decent. Some woke people have good intentions, sure, but they aren’t decent. Being woke means being evil.
this is actually incoherent
I have mixed feelings about Lemmy still being so small that I can recognize usernames and think, “oh, there’s that nut job again”
The questioning is stupid. There is no nuance on the categorisation of frequency because “always” and “sometimes” are put together. They do not mean the same thing! “Always” means “all the time”, “sometimes” means “on occasions”. I am an advocate for free speech as much as the next person, but there is limit to that right because history has shown what can happen if free speech is absolute-- which led us the Holocaust and the Rwandan genocide. Therefore, “sometimes” you COULD shout down someone depending on the content being spouted. So, on a case by case basis, “on occasions” you could shout down someone.
As another poster pointed out, the company who made the survey is conducted by conservative group, FIRE, which is Koch-funded so obviously there is clear bias and dishonesty in the framing of the survey.
You freedome ends where someone elses starts, otherwhise noone except you will be free, I don’t get why Americans often have such a hard time with that!
The US never, in its history, had a collective trauma of unstifled free speech that led to any mass hate speech which then led to genocide. That’s why many Americans are absolutists. But considering the Jan 6 capitol attack two years ago, being instigated by the words of Donald Trump, I think sooner or later a worse incident will come eventually. And the country will come reckoning with their absolutist approach to free speech.
never led to genocide?? how about indigenous people?
I think the issue comes down to collective trauma and lack of free speech by the oppressed.
The massacre of the native peoples, horrors of slavery and resulting civil war, Jim Crow era in the south, the war on drugs, and the war on terror are all genocides in their own right, but the voices of the oppressed have been silenced in history books and mass media under the guise of ‘keeping the peace’ or promoting unity, while the people who facilitate(d) these things continue(d) to play a role in shaping national discourse.
(Say nothing of ‘lesser’ national traumas, such as prohibition, the race riots of the 50’s and 60’s, the intentional lack of healthcare for the gay community during the height of the AIDS epidemic, and the ongoing class war that’s being executed through education access and cuts to social programs.)The U.S. has never looked inward, or if it has, it has largely chosen to ignore the lessons that could be learned.
I think that even if there were a nationally traumatizing event of the sort that transformed Germany, the U.S. would gleefully skip past it to repeat the same mistakes.
I believe the issue is not lack of opportunity to learn, but a resistance to learning and a refusal to, as it were, e pluribus unum.
Hear hear!
No one has a freedom from someone saying something mean about them
The Holocaust and the Rwandan genocide didn’t happen because of absolute free speech. Quite on the contrary: freedom of speech was heavily suppressed
Hatred had been allowed to flourish in the run up to both genocides and eventual stifling of free speech, precisely because the undemocratic forces took advantage of freedom of speech to gain power themselves and then stifle any dissent.
The Rwandan genocide in relation to media and free speech is slightly different. It is the government affiliated radio station that encouraged to hate the Tutsis by constantly calling them cockroaches. Interestingly, there was a debate in the US government at the time to block radio signals from the radio station, but decided not to for “commitment to freedom of speech”.
The paradox of tolerance: The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually ceased or destroyed by the intolerant.
Hatred didn’t flourish because of freedom of speech, hatred flourished because of normalized violence and censorship of opposition. Even the German communist party attacked Jews for some time.
Good point.
Yeah this is an example of “lying with graphs 101”.
The data probably didn’t fit the narrative when they separate “always” and “sometimes”
Basically, “every opinion I don’t like is a religion.”
even if it is a religion. So what? does that degrades it’s value? what happened to them preaching about christian’s tollerence?
if it was ever there.
I do know many Christians who are all about love and tolerance, the problem is, they aren’t the ones going onto Fox News to declare they’ll be shouting how much “Jesus loves you, but only if you’re straight!” at your local university…
They’re the ones quietly living their lives according to Jesus’ teachings…
A few of these friends have taken to calling the kind of Christians the Alt-Right claims to be 'Xtians", for they have taken the “Christ” out of “Christians”
Crosstians? They sure like to carry them and seem to be quite cross with the rest of society, fits for me.
I think calling Atheism a religion does degrade its value. It brings atheism into the same category as religion, it promotes the idea that atheists need just as much faith as religious people, it basically turns science into a religion.
Just to be clear, I define Atheism as “without belief in a God”, that would include anyone saying they are agnostic.
If this graph isn’t just made up bs in the first place, one thought I recall from every major college campus I’ve been to is random religious preachers camped out every day telling everyone they’re evil, subhuman, and going to hell. Guessing the atheists find that a little more annoying and worthy of shouting back at than some of the religiously inclined.
Atheists vs no response/nothing crowd are more quick to point out that you should not only have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. I think that makes the separation between the two on this graph.
Nazi: “white power!” Normal people: “hey, stfu!” Cristian Conservatives: “hey I don’t agree with it but let’s hear him out. Some people might agree, his ideas deserve to be discussed and given a platform”
Alternatively:
Reasoned person: “We should help poor people”
Christian Conservatives: “STFU you woke liberal piece of shit, I hope you die! Go suck Biden’s dick, loser”
Conservatives continue to be absurd little pussies desperate to deflect
Who the fuck knows. Stupid shit like this that barely even makes sense is why Elron is famed for being an incredibly pretentious but dim tool.
The speaker in question? Some right wing Christian lunatic!
There seems to be an innate need for religion.
For whom? Because I sure as shit don’t have any need to believe in fairy tales.
For whom?
Generally the uneducated or low-iq who simply can’t be educated. They don’t understand science so to them it might as well be another religion. In that case why not pick the religion that gives them a nice afterlife? Something they can fall back on and blame when they make poor decision after poor decision.
On the most fundamental level: For everyone. That’s because every world-view bogs down to a logical system and all logical systems are grounded in circular reasoning, paradox, or assumptions not provable in that system.
People believe in all kinds of things, e.g. that the judge who’s sentencing you to prison is more than a human in fancy clothes. Or that the social reality that gives them that power doesn’t exist. Both stances are, ultimately, insane, and so are we all.
EDIT: ITT: Cargo cultists not understanding what science is (a process) and isn’t (proof of anything).
all logical systems are grounded in circular reasoning, paradox, or assumptions not provable in that system.
That’s a hell of an assertion you have there. We have mathematical papers that prove 1+1=2. What logical system are you saying is grounded in circular reasoning, paradox, or assumptions? Because modern peer reviewed science sure isn’t.
We have mathematical papers that prove 1+1=2
They postulate systems in which that is entailed. Generally, as we’re speaking about maths, with assumptions (axioms) not provable in that system, mathematicians don’t like basing things on circular or paradox stuff but ultimately that’s a matter of taste, not what the system can express.
What logical system are you saying is grounded in circular reasoning, paradox, or assumptions?
All. Show me a proof of implication without using either, I’m waiting.
Because modern peer reviewed science sure isn’t.
It is based on the scientific method which can be understood as an algorithm which via Curry-Howard and Church is a logic which, well, see above. The universe might just as well be a Holtzmann brain and in exactly 15 seconds after you read this it’s going to switch to a different dream, and you’ll never know.
Now you may not like that we ultimately have nothing to stand on but that’s your problem, not that of the universe. Or science. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Well, it seems the same ding-a-lings claiming agnosticism and atheism are religions are also prone to claiming science is a “religion”, following evidence is a “religion”, and so on…
By lumping them all into the same category, it gives credibility to “religion”.
When you have a panel where “A priest, a rabbi, and a mullah discus spirituality”, it’s a level playing field, everyone is just there to compare notes on their LARPing rules.
If an atheist or a scientist join the panel, you now have an emperors new clothes situation, “Yeah, I don’t have all the answers, but more importantly, neither do they, and I’m not claiming to. Here are the facts and evidence as it is currently understood, and what that might mean”.
When you call atheism or science or woke a religion, they are trying to trap you by saying “ha! Your belief is just as meaningless as I mine is! We’re all equal and subjective rules apply”.
New Atheism is insanely dogmatic, but it’s not the same as Atheism, and has been criticized by Atheists who classify “New Atheism” as being akin to a hate-group
and Scientism is a school of philosophy, albeit one that’s mocked relentlessly (Basically, the philosophy that everything that is real can be measured, and if it can’t be measured it isn’t real)
But… that’s as close as I’d get to describing Science or Atheism as religions…
I say this as an agnostic person for the record.
Wow look at the near perfect Buddhism balance.
This is the (middle) way.
Purely depends on the speaker
Yeah obviously, but that was the point. Would you shout down any speaker
I mean if it was literally Hitler come back to life, sure.
They shouldn’t have grouped “always” and “sometimes”.
It means that people who are hard line anti religion and would yell at someone if they dared to express the tiniest support for a religion to people who would protest or yell at someone who is widely accepted as bad.
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yes
I originally perceived this as if the religion of the speaker was x, results were how likely they’d be essentially boo’d. I don’t get much shit for being an atheist lately, but depending on the peer group it can get a little…dicey.
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Religion is harmful to people and atheism isn’t. Do these people complain when someone shuts down a speaker who advocates having sex with young children? No? Then shut the hell up and let us kill religion like it should have been centuries ago.
