I absolutely will pick the no-tips place given a choice, but I take issue with that wording. Basically every business pays as little as possible, by design.
I would happily pay more for my meal if it meant I didn’t have to tip. The benefit we get from not tipping is marginal compared to the benefit restaurant owners get by not paying living wage. Not to mention it’s added stress to the actual people doing the work because they don’t even get the guarantee of a decent paycheck.
And there is a choice, you chose to perpetuate the system that grossly exploits the laborer, I choose to have minimal participation in such a system. Want to take a guess which of the two actually has a chance to fix the system?
I suppose, but it’s really hard to separate. You have to pick a cutoff, which in the face of a world full of intangible wealth and costs is hard, and then if you come out with a number that’s too high you basically have nowhere you can shop.
There’s select industries that are super shitty, and I avoid those, but paying minimum wage for unskilled labour is a normal industry. (And, ironically, a lot of the fair-ethical-organic type businesses are super shitty themselves, because everyone wants to get paid extra and some will do horrible things to make that happen)
Wait, where are you? I thought I recognised you from .ca, but it sounds like you might be thinking of the US system where they can pay nothing except tips. In my province you earn at least minimum wage as a waiter, and tips.
If I were to just straight up refuse to eat from restaurants under any circumstance, I’d be heavily incurring those intangible costs I mentioned, because it’s an expected social thing. That being said, I might consider it if I was in the US, but I’m not.
Also, tips have expanded well beyond servers, but that’s kind of beside the point.
Well you thought wrong. I was born and raised in the U.S. and lived there until about two weeks ago when we fled.
And in my 47 years in America, I was never in a situation where I couldn’t say, “no thanks” if someone invited me to a restaurant. And who invites you to restaurants and makes you pay?
If you keep patronizing such businesses, why would they ever do that? They know they don’t have to in order to get your money. And it is the same with your own near-minimum wage job. You are working against your own best interests. Nothing will change while people are willing to give their money to companies that don’t pay their workers a fair wage.
Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against tipping if the person did a good job, but a company trying to guilt trip me into giving them a mandatory tip? Nah, that’s bullshit, it’s essentially “Oh, we can’t pay our employees enough, would you mind helping 🥺”. Outta here with that.
I think it is the case of “you think in the right direction, but you don’t do it all the way, so now I’m gonna attack you over this until you stop doing anything”.
Rewarding the employer for underpaying the employees is not, in any way, the right direction, though? Not tipping is just telling the employees “I don’t care if you get paid, so long as I get what I want”
How? Those people just aren’t going to get the money. Its not like the company is going to pay them extra because you didnt tip. Theyve already decided that the wage will be low
Your logic doesn’t really make sense
There is a minimum amount of total money the employee could make before they’d go and work somewhere else instead. So if, hypothetically, everyone in a country where tipping is common even for non-exceptional service just stopped paying tips, hospitality employers would be forced to pay more to stay competitive with other non-customer-facing industries.
Of course, a drastic shock to the economy like that would probably cause a lot of upheaval, as some employers struggle to accept the new norm.
However, the same thing would work even if the change was slower - e.g. if 5% of people didn’t tip, and did it very obviously and vocally, and then the practice spread as it reached 10% and so on.
Obviously it sucks for the employees who get hit by the first few non-tippers, but over the long term it would be for the better for worker rights. So I could absolutely see it working.
That said, I say this from a country where tipping is not the norm (except maybe the occasional ‘keep the change’ for exceptional service), and the law and expectation is that the most prominent displayed price is the total price you pay - and people react very negatively towards businesses seen as trying to bring in American style tipping culture.
You don’t get it, I think? The point is to get the workers to quit or protest because they don’t get paid enough, so that the place can increase the prices instead so they can pay their workers. If the place is still providing a nice service or good food or whatever it may be, you don’t want it to go out of business. Just make a worker-positive change.
I’m trying to help the establishment, by changing their ways. Not by bankrupting them. And if they just keep changing waiters, surely the quality of service will go down and Darwin takes care of the rest.
Most people won’t quit, especially in the US from what I know. If they are already underpaid, how can they quit? And if pretty much every place treats waiters the same, what choice do they have?
Maybe it’s your job to avoid patronizing places that don’t pay their employees enough though?
I absolutely will pick the no-tips place given a choice, but I take issue with that wording. Basically every business pays as little as possible, by design.
Given a choice? There’s always a choice. You’re just leaving yourself a convenient back door to not tip while benefitting from tipping culture.
I would happily pay more for my meal if it meant I didn’t have to tip. The benefit we get from not tipping is marginal compared to the benefit restaurant owners get by not paying living wage. Not to mention it’s added stress to the actual people doing the work because they don’t even get the guarantee of a decent paycheck.
And there is a choice, you chose to perpetuate the system that grossly exploits the laborer, I choose to have minimal participation in such a system. Want to take a guess which of the two actually has a chance to fix the system?
“As little as possible” and “not enough” are two different things.
I suppose, but it’s really hard to separate. You have to pick a cutoff, which in the face of a world full of intangible wealth and costs is hard, and then if you come out with a number that’s too high you basically have nowhere you can shop.
There’s select industries that are super shitty, and I avoid those, but paying minimum wage for unskilled labour is a normal industry. (And, ironically, a lot of the fair-ethical-organic type businesses are super shitty themselves, because everyone wants to get paid extra and some will do horrible things to make that happen)
You’re saying this like it’s necessary to eat in restaurants with waiters. It isn’t. It’s a luxury.
Wait, where are you? I thought I recognised you from .ca, but it sounds like you might be thinking of the US system where they can pay nothing except tips. In my province you earn at least minimum wage as a waiter, and tips.
If I were to just straight up refuse to eat from restaurants under any circumstance, I’d be heavily incurring those intangible costs I mentioned, because it’s an expected social thing. That being said, I might consider it if I was in the US, but I’m not.
Also, tips have expanded well beyond servers, but that’s kind of beside the point.
Well you thought wrong. I was born and raised in the U.S. and lived there until about two weeks ago when we fled.
And in my 47 years in America, I was never in a situation where I couldn’t say, “no thanks” if someone invited me to a restaurant. And who invites you to restaurants and makes you pay?
No, it’s not, however as a near-minimum wage worker myself, it is also not my job to cover a massive corporation’s lack of proper budgeting…
If you keep patronizing such businesses, why would they ever do that? They know they don’t have to in order to get your money. And it is the same with your own near-minimum wage job. You are working against your own best interests. Nothing will change while people are willing to give their money to companies that don’t pay their workers a fair wage.
Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against tipping if the person did a good job, but a company trying to guilt trip me into giving them a mandatory tip? Nah, that’s bullshit, it’s essentially “Oh, we can’t pay our employees enough, would you mind helping 🥺”. Outta here with that.
Right,so don’t use those businesses. You give them no reason to do anything differently.
All you are doing is helping to maintain the status quo.
I think it is the case of “you think in the right direction, but you don’t do it all the way, so now I’m gonna attack you over this until you stop doing anything”.
Not paying tips is a good start.
Can you give an example of that ever working? Because boycotts sure as fuck work.
Rewarding the employer for underpaying the employees is not, in any way, the right direction, though? Not tipping is just telling the employees “I don’t care if you get paid, so long as I get what I want”
How? Those people just aren’t going to get the money. Its not like the company is going to pay them extra because you didnt tip. Theyve already decided that the wage will be low Your logic doesn’t really make sense
There is a minimum amount of total money the employee could make before they’d go and work somewhere else instead. So if, hypothetically, everyone in a country where tipping is common even for non-exceptional service just stopped paying tips, hospitality employers would be forced to pay more to stay competitive with other non-customer-facing industries.
Of course, a drastic shock to the economy like that would probably cause a lot of upheaval, as some employers struggle to accept the new norm.
However, the same thing would work even if the change was slower - e.g. if 5% of people didn’t tip, and did it very obviously and vocally, and then the practice spread as it reached 10% and so on.
Obviously it sucks for the employees who get hit by the first few non-tippers, but over the long term it would be for the better for worker rights. So I could absolutely see it working.
That said, I say this from a country where tipping is not the norm (except maybe the occasional ‘keep the change’ for exceptional service), and the law and expectation is that the most prominent displayed price is the total price you pay - and people react very negatively towards businesses seen as trying to bring in American style tipping culture.
I would not, that’s… what I’m trying to imply here… Yeah, businesses who don’t pay their employees enough bad.
You don’t get it, I think? The point is to get the workers to quit or protest because they don’t get paid enough, so that the place can increase the prices instead so they can pay their workers. If the place is still providing a nice service or good food or whatever it may be, you don’t want it to go out of business. Just make a worker-positive change.
It takes everyone to fix these issues. It is not a one-sided job. Every time you give these establishments money, you help them.
And there is no shortage of replacement waiters out there for the ones who quit.
I’m trying to help the establishment, by changing their ways. Not by bankrupting them. And if they just keep changing waiters, surely the quality of service will go down and Darwin takes care of the rest.
Can you give an example of this “I give them money and expect their employees to quit unless they get paid better” strategy working in the past?
Don’t you think people boycott for a reason?
Most people won’t quit, especially in the US from what I know. If they are already underpaid, how can they quit? And if pretty much every place treats waiters the same, what choice do they have?
They won’t have a choice but to quit if we all boycott the business either.
Certainly not lol, what a ridiculous thing to say